Veterans Targeted in Military Benefits Scam, Part 2

(MUSIC INTRO)

[00:00:01] Bob: This week on The Perfect Scam.

[00:00:04] Michael Haring: These contracts are not only predatory, they're illegal, they're not allowed. But I think that if there's nobody there to represent the veteran who has fallen prey to this, then it, it's a default judgement. There's no argument to be had if, if they don't show up or nobody's there to represent them. The whole situation is, was just terribly unfortunate.

(MUSIC SEGUE)

 [00:00:36] Bob: Welcome back to The Perfect Scam, I’m your host Bob Sullivan. When we left off last week, we were following the story of Michael Haring. He’s an Iraq War veteran, who’s fallen on hard financial times back home in the US. During the war, he spent years driving around the outskirts of Bagdad looking for improvised explosive devices, IEDs, which left him with PTSD. He gets a small disability payment but even with that and his salary, a divorce and expensive medical issues with his child, pushes him to seek financial relief. He thought he’d found that with an organization named Voyager Financial, which paid him a lump sum in exchange for five years’ worth of disability payments. But that only made his money problems worse. Where we pick up the story, Voyager has sued Michael and he’s planning to travel from his home in Colorado to South Carolina to defend himself to tell the court the debt should have been discharged in bankruptcy. But as he works to find a local lawyer, he makes a shocking discovery that impacts him and a whole lot of other veterans working with Voyager.  

[00:01:48] Michael Haring: I read the federal regulations that cover veterans’ benefits and the assignment of veterans’ benefits. The regulation says that any contract which assigns a benefit is "void on inception" is the word. So it's, it was, the whole thing was illegal. I mean from the, from the, from the very beginning none, none of the contracts were enforceable.

[00:02:24] Bob: Michael's VA benefit couldn't have been assigned to Voyager Financial Group. The whole arrangement, the whole contract is unenforceable. And yet, here is Upstate Legal and Voyager Financial suing him, even after his bankruptcy. Armed with this information and a local lawyer, Michael finally gets some good news.

[00:02:47] Michael Haring: I reached out to this legal group, and I don't remember where they were from, whether it was the Carolinas or not, but they were doing pro bono work and I explained to a gentleman there that look, this is my situation, this is, I've got this hearing date. I'm set to go pro se and represent myself. And he took all of my information. I don't know what he said, within that case that Upstate Law Group had filed against me, they dismissed with prejudice.

[00:03:21] Bob: His case is dismissed but Michael also learns a dark truth about Voyager Financial and its owner, Candy Kern.

[00:03:31] Michael Haring: I wasn't the only veteran that was going through this with Upstate Law Group because of a VFG contract. This was becoming a real problem. I'm very, very, very fortunate. In speaking with other reporters, news agencies about this exact situation, I've become aware that more often than not what happened in these cases was that Upstate Law Group was getting default judgments. They were getting default judgments against veterans who either didn't know they had a court date or just didn't know what to do to defend themselves from these predators. They were getting default judgments for absurd amounts of money. Like in, in my case, I received $21,000. There were other veterans who received $80,000, $100,000 and were getting default judgments in the range of a quarter of a million dollars because Upstate Law Group was, was adding on all sorts of damages and fees, and this is my understanding. And it's also my understanding that at least one veteran committed suicide because of a default judgment that had been entered against him in a case brought on my Upstate Law Group. So I'm very, very, very fortunate.

[00:05:04] Bob: Soon after, legal troubles start to pile up for Voyager Financial. They are sued in 2017. An Arizona regulator issues a cease-and-desist order in 2018. In 2019, Kern agrees to stop selling these complex financial products, but disputes that they are illegal. In 2020, the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau and the State of South Carolina sue Kern and Upstate Law Group. And just last year Kern pleaded guilty to federal conspiracy charges. She is still awaiting sentencing. But according to a Justice Department memo, she was able to sell these so-called structured cash flow entities for 9 years. And it's not just the veterans who took out these complicated loans who were hurt by the scam. Their disability payments were essentially sold to investors who were promised a steady stream of income.

[00:06:02] Michael Haring: A lot of the investors were veterans too. A lot of them were elderly investors. That was the situation with my contract. And the investor on the other end of my contract was an elderly uh, gentleman who was also a veteran. And, and he, he, he's since passed.

[00:06:19] Bob: And, and the pitch to them was, you can help out struggling veterans and maybe make a little money too, right?

[00:06:23] Michael Haring: It, it could have been. I was never on the other end of that pitch, but I can almost guarantee you, I mean it would only make sense to say, "Oh this is guaranteed by the federal government. This is a safe investment," and you know I mean just really build it up because it's all, sure it's all government benefits, it just so happened that in my case, the investor was a veteran as well, okay. It came to be my understanding that for my contract, the investor actually paid Voyager Financial Group well over $50,000 of which I received 21 or $22,000.

[00:07:10] Bob: Yeah, yeah...

[00:07:11] Michael Haring: Yeah.

[00:07:12] Bob: Those, those numbers are just a, unconscionable is the word that comes to mind.

[00:07:17] Michael Haring: Yeah, the, the math doesn't add up.

[00:07:18] Bob: But I do like to put things in these stark terms. There is somebody out there who thought it was a good idea to take benefits from a disabled veteran and charge them $50,000 for $21,000. Like that's how outrageous this is.

[00:07:32] Michael Haring: Right, oh it, absolutely. I agree with you there, it is outrageous.

[00:07:37] Bob: And there's another element to this story that just feels so wrong. When veterans fail to make their payments, South Carolina debt courts would often enter what are known as "default judgments" against the veterans allowing Upstate Law Group to seize their wages and other means to extract their pound of flesh from the victims even though the entire arrangement was unenforceable.

[00:08:02] Bob: What do you think of that?

[00:08:03] Michael Haring: I was just about to remark on that because I have to question, what's going on with the judge? I do not have a JD degree. I am not a lawyer, but I can go and look at the federal regulation and read it right there in plain English, "void on inception," this cannot be done. It's plain, it's clear. These contracts are not only predatory, they're illegal, they're not allowed. But I think that if there's nobody there to represent the veteran who has fallen prey to this, then it, it's a default judgement. There's no argument to be had if, if they don't show up or nobody's there to represent them. I think the whole, the whole situation is, was just terribly unfortunate.

[00:08:57] Bob: I mean terrible unfortunate is a kind and gentle term, I have to say.

[00:09:02] Michael Haring: I try to be kind and gentle whenever possible.

[00:09:07] Bob: I mean good for you, what a, what good does it do otherwise but I mean this just makes my blood f-ing boil.

[00:09:13] Michael Haring: Curdle, yeah. Yeah it, it's infur--, it is. It's infuriating. It's an injustice. It's predatory against the very people who have served to protect our own nation and its interests on both sides.

[00:09:33] Bob: In the end, federal authorities say Voyager and Upstate stole $31 million from investors. The Consumer Financial Protection Bureau was able to seize some of the, some of the money stolen, about $6 million, and return it to some of the victims. Michael didn't get any of that, and he paid a price for dealing with these companies.

[00:09:55] Michael Haring: It was emotionally devastating. And I think that's the lightest way that I can put it. It was emotionally devastating because I knew that I had an obligation and I think that's something that all veterans, the vast majority of veterans, are going to take very seriously is, are there obligations. I have an obligation to this. Look, I got $20,000. I have an obligation to pay this back, okay? So there's the emotional distress from that, there's the, the amount of sleep that I lost over knowing, I don't know how I'm going to make this work. You know I've, I put, you know I ... I apparently put myself into a situation here where I'm no longer getting the income that I needed. Sure for a short while my short-term financial problems were solved, but at a very dire cost. So it was, it was emotionally devastating just this, this whole process, and then, and then once that uh, lawsuit had been filed, I'm very fortunate I was able to keep my wits and I, I tried to be methodical about it. I tried to do everything right by the book. Bankruptcy is never, you know, a go-to. It's never necessarily anything that, it's not something that anybody wants to happen, but in, in my situation between the contract with, with VFG and other debts that had arisen, um, you know, I didn't have any choice because I had to live, I have a family and children to support, and you know this is just something I have to do. Not every other veteran involved was able to do that. You know especially the men and women who had these default judgments put against them. It's, it's, it's unconscionable, it's terrible to relive, you know, uh but um that, that was the situation.

[00:12:02] Bob: And I'm sorry to put you through it again.

[00:12:04] Michael Haring: No, no, you're fine.

[00:12:05] Bob: Yeah, no, I do appreciate this is hard to talk about, but that it's important because this, a version of this kind of scam just comes up over and over and over again. So it's...

[00:12:16] Michael Haring: Is that right?

[00:12:17] Bob: Yeah, yeah, there's just...

[00:12:18] Michael Haring: I can't, I honestly, I can't imagine anybody else trying to get away with this.

[00:12:21] Bob: Well...

[00:12:23] Bob: And yet, after all he's been through in Iraq and in Colorado, Michael is somehow grateful.

[00:12:33] Bob: People are going to wonder how, how are you today?

[00:12:35] Michael Haring: Yeah, I am very fortunate. I'm doing well. I have a really good job. I live in a nice area. Both of my children have flown the coop. Like I said, my, my son is in the Army Reserve. He's living out of state. My daughter recently moved out. I've got a couple of dogs that keep me on my toes. And uh, I...

[00:13:03] Bob: What are your dogs' names?

[00:13:04] Michael Haring: Oh, Rupee and Molly. Rupee, like uh, think of, think of the, the Indian money. Rupee. Rupee and Molly. I was in a bad situation for a long time, and the fact I've been able to come out of it and find the inner peace that I've found, I consider myself very fortunate every single day.

[00:13:28] Bob: As somebody who's seen all the things that you've seen and been through all these things can, can say that you feel lucky, that's pretty, that's pretty a--, amazing.

[00:13:36] Michael Haring: Absolutely. I mean I've, I, I put things in perspective by telling myself this; all of my problems are first world. Look, don't get me wrong, I'm still paycheck to paycheck like so many millions upon millions of other Americans, okay, but all of my problems are first world. My kids are great. I've, I've, I've got a decent place to live. I've got a job that takes care of me, and I'm thankful, I'm fortunate.

[00:14:12] Bob: Thankful. Fortunate. Just amazing. When you talk with someone like Michael, any vet really, and listen to what they've done, a swelling sense of gratitude comes over you which leads to all the more anger when you hear about a scam designed to target what should be 16 million treasured Americans. And make no mistake, vets are, a target. Why? To find out, we brought in Carroll Harris, himself a 30-year vet of the Marines. He now works with the Postal Inspection Service to fight against the scams, and specifically scams targeting vets.

[00:14:54] Bob: Let's just begin there, why, why are veterans a, such a target?

[00:14:58] Carroll Harris: Veterans are a target because one, they give goodwill, they live in difficult circumstances, and they want to do good for their community and for others. And when you do that, you expose yourself. And through their service, they earn benefits, valuable benefits, that criminals have learned is something to target and because veterans are open and they're, they want to help other veterans and they, they break down some of their barriers when they're around those veterans, that creates a vulnerability that the unscrupulous and the lowest of low can take advantage of, and they can separate these hard-earned benefits, that veterans' right, away from the veterans and their families and they can steal from them, or they can manipulate legal processes for nefarious purposes. That's what's happening. Our veterans deserve a lot. They deserve our adulation. They don't deserve to be targeted, they don't deserve to be manipulated and that's what these criminals are doing, and it sticks in my craw.

[00:15:55] Bob: I, I mean when you say hard-earned, so I mean I forced Michael, he didn't really want to talk about it, the person we spoke with a moment ago, to describe his main duty in Iraq which was driving around in a Humvee 11 hours a day looking for unexploded IEDs for four years. And you know for that, uh because of the PTSD that he suffers as a result of that, he receives $1600 a month. I can't imagine a better bargain for American people than that kind of a trade, and yet somebody targets those benefits. It's just so upsetting.

[00:16:31] Carroll Harris: It, it's upsetting on so many fronts because when our veterans return home, whether their ailment is visible and physical or, or mental, both are real to that veteran. And the veterans need help. They're vulnerable in some circumstances. Uh many of our veterans, you know they return home and they're better for having gone through that arduous experience. But some of us need a little help. And for those that need help, we need to protect them. Our society has, I believe, a duty to be aware of what's going on and to help protect our protectors when they return home from the battlefront. And I believe this podcast, and the messaging you're doing and the story you're telling is, is a part of that and I thank you and I thank AARP for pausing and taking a moment to tell these stories. Because if we can help just one, even just one, we're making a difference. And I think you're helping way more than one.

[00:17:29] Bob: You know I would like to go back to something you said a moment ago about essentially, I think you were saying that veterans are trusting, especially of other veterans, or, or people who seem to support veterans. Could you talk about that a little more, because I do think that's a big part of the story.

[00:17:43] Carroll Harris: Absolutely. What happens with veterans is they form a sense of camaraderie and community through their service. Some of the most powerful emotions and experiences you can have are tied to these high-risk environments that the veterans live and operate in, both stateside and OCONUS overseas. And those bonds are, are sacred in the veteran community. So when veterans meet other veterans that have had these similar experiences and been forged in the fire so to speak, it immediately removes barriers and breaks down some of the things that people may naturally just have in society with other strangers. If I meet a, now I was in the Marines, so when I meet a Marine, I immediately have an affinity to that person. And because of that affinity, my, my guard goes down, and I just feel a warmth to be around that person. And I, and actually in general, I feel that way about all veterans. So with that, criminals have learned that if they can uh break into that veteran community, they can find people that are letting their guard down inside that sacred circle, that circle of trust that's been forged in fire and earned overseas, and sometimes earned in blood. So they come in, they penetrate that circle, they pretend to be a veteran, or they are a veteran sometimes just turned for bad, and they get into that circle and they get the people to break down their barriers, and then they can manipulate the veteran to separate the veteran from their benefits. They can steal their personally identifying information. They can get the veteran to do things that aren't to the veteran's advantage, and they can separate the veteran from, in some cases, vitally needed cash flows that are there to, to prop up the veteran.

[00:19:27] Bob: Theft of those benefit checks, that can really, really hurt.

[00:19:33] Carroll Harris: Many of them don't have cushions. They’re young, they're just getting going in life in some cases, and in some cases they're older and they, they've lived as long as me or you, but many of the cases, regardless of age, they just don't have a lot of cushion there. It really had a bad impact and many times, it's just exacerbating what was already a difficult situation because the veteran is struggling to heal physically, or the veteran is struggling to, to heal, heal mentally and go through the post traumatic growth experience that they need to go through so that they can get on with the best version of themselves. It, it really is troubling to see it happening and that's why I'm so grateful for organizations like yours and our other federal law enforcement partners and other uh charity organizations that are getting out the word so that we can help protect the veterans and, and the veterans' family.

[00:20:23] Bob: Okay, let's face it. While you have a bond, I'm sure with all veterans, yours is a little bit stronger when you meet a Marine, no?

[00:20:30] Carroll Harris: (laugh) Ah, I do love Marines. And uh, you know, my wife was in the Marine Corps, that's how I met her. Some of my best friends are in the Marine Corps; I, I just have a, I can't help but love Marines. It's a, the Marine Corps is a little bit extreme, and I enjoyed that, uh that wild nature. Uh, there's a, there's a wild-eyed look in most Marines, and it, it can get, it's turned for good. And it just feels good to be a part of them and in that community. Last night I enjoyed watching the Super Bowl here in Los Angeles, and I was at the American Legion with veterans from all walks of life and all ages, and some of them, one of the people I was speaking with needed some help, and I was able to channel them to good organizations like yours in, in our conversation uh on breaks while we were watching the Super Bowl. It, it just matters. But scammers do the same thing. They, they, they go into these same environments, and they, they look for those vulnerable veterans and they work to take that affinity, pretend to be something they're not, pretend to be looking out for the interest of the veterans, and, and manipulate the veteran into doing something that is not in their own interest. It just bothers me.

[00:21:35] Bob: So we've talked about why veterans are a target. Can you explain to people who might not realize this, why veterans benefits are such an attractive target to criminals?

[00:21:43] Carroll Harris: Sure, so the veterans benefits that are provided by the Veterans Benefits Administration, there's a lot of nuance there, and there's cash flows associated with it. If they have physical injuries or if they are going through post-traumatic stress, uh, those cash flows and the counseling and the, the things that the veterans rate can be attractive to a criminal because they know that there's an annuity that exists. So that's why they're being targeted, because there are cash flows there that the scammers can get to and because the veterans have that sense of community and oftentimes when veterans leave the service, they, they miss that pride and belonging that, that strong sense of camaraderie that can only be developed through those difficult arduous circumstances. And that creates a vulnerability, if the veteran doesn't find a, a healthy way to do a transition and to fill that void or sometimes I refer to it as a hole in your heart. Everybody's got a hole in their, a hole in their heart, and they're filling it with different things. It can be something positive or something negative, and sometimes the veterans are struggling, and they may not have come from an advantageous background. Many of our veterans, the people that are serving, come from difficult backgrounds in their youth. So they have that as well as the, the challenges of having survived uh years of combat for some of them. And that creates a susceptibility. And that's why they need good organizations like AARP, or the American Legion where I, where I was enjoying watching the Super Bowl last night. They need these, these powerfully good social organizations, philanthropical organizations, that social fabric to fill that hole in their heart with a protective envelope. They need their battle buddies.

[00:23:34] Bob: They need their battle buddies. We all need battle buddies of course, but it's a concept that really helps veterans with that hole in their hearts, Carroll told us.

[00:23:46] Carroll Harris: And for those who haven't found that, they get, they get approached by the scammers and pretty much everybody's being targeted. The scammer catches them at the right time and the right place, they get them in, in a weak moment, they don't have a battle buddy to check, they'll make a bad financial decision. That's why we always talk about having a good battle buddy before you make any significant financial decisions. There's, I, I like to use the letters PBC. Pause, Breathe, Connect. When these scammers approach, they're going to try to create some time pressure. They do it with lots of scams. They're going to try to crunch the veteran into quickly making significant financial decisions. And that's why I encourage everyone, veterans and beyond, they need to pause, they need to take a breath, and they need to connect with a battle buddy. A trusted resource. Someone outside of the scope of what the scammer's trying to get them to do. Pause, breathe, connect before you make any significant financial decision, and that is how you can up-armor yourself.

[00:24:45] Bob: PBC. Pause, Breath, and Connect. I like that a lot.

[00:24:50] Carroll Harris: There you go. Pretty easy to remember that too, right?

[00:24:53] Bob: Yeah, sure, sure.

[00:24:55] Bob: And so Carroll really believes everyone needs 3 to 5 battle buddies in their life. They can be hard to find, but resources are available.

[00:25:07] Carroll Harris: There are many directions you could run for help. The, the big thing is to reach out and make contact with someone. You can choose who the battle buddy is, but you've got to reach out and not fall for that time pressure crunch if you, if you don't just have somebody naturally in your circle that is, you know that, that is a, a good buddy that you trust. I like to reference the 3 to 5. I believe everybody should have three to five people in their life that are their, their battle buddies, that are trusted resources that they can wash over uh challenging circumstances, they can share openly and freely with that person in a place of safety to explore the art of the possible by hey, what's the best choice when I go through this difficult crunch? So everybody should have a 3 to 5, and if they don't, they should, they should find an organization to get it. I, I'm a firm believer in the American Legion as a place where you can get that, because it's oriented on social good and in serving veterans, and you don't have to be a veteran to go over and be associated with them by the way. They have, they have veterans as well as nonveteran membership opportunities where you can serve and protect and, and help other people, and develop your own 3 to 5 so you have good battle buddies in life.

[00:26:13] Bob: And if you know a veteran, you can be that battle buddy. You can step up and help a veteran who might be at risk.

[00:26:22] Carroll Harris: We can do better as a society just like we're doing here on this podcast. We can spread the word, let them know. We can watch out for our brothers and our sisters. We can be the battle buddy.

[00:26:31] Bob: What should friends and family do if they know of a veteran and they're worried that person might be vulnerable, or might be in the middle of a crime right now? How can they be--, become a battle buddy? It's a little bit more nuanced than, than I would think a lot of people realize.

[00:26:46] Carroll Harris: Yeah, it really depends on the personality of the veteran but I, what I would suggest that you, you find the right timing and the tact to, to make an approach and to let them know you care about them and that you're concerned for them and the reasons why. That whatever, whatever scam or scheme or the reason you think they may be being manipulated. And, and to be honest and to lay it onto the table, and and to, and to advance the conversation from there. Some people, people might be responsive to it. Sometimes when the conversation happens, the veterans, uh don't believe that's the case, and it's not just veterans, it's just, it, it's Americans in general. Sometimes when you confront them, uh you know in the most loving way you can to say, "Hey, I believe you're being scammed, you're becoming separated from your funds." It, you have to fight against that for a while, because they just don't believe you that that's the case. And that requires consistent engagement, because that person's been so manipulated that they're not, you know, believing their son or their daughter or their best friend, and they're believing the scammer who calls them on the phone all the time or wherever or whatever the, the flavor of the interaction. Sometimes it's just emails on the internet, ironically, that can have a stronger bond or grip around that person's mind than their own son or daughter. So it's very tough, it's very nuanced, and it does require some energy and some engagement to break through, break that tie and to protect this person from being further manipulated.

[00:28:16] Bob: I like what you said there about, you know, ongoing conversations because so often the first one will, will fail, and, and as a person who's trying to help, you need to keep trying over time. It takes, it takes engagement over time, right?

[00:28:28] Carroll Harris: Absolutely. It takes engagement over time, it takes tenacity on the, the battle buddy or the caregiver. It takes patience. Um, you, you know, you're going to get rejection in some cases from the person that you're reaching out to, and that rejection is a cham--, you know it's a breakfast of champions. You've just got to soak up that rejection and continue to come back with love in your heart and help that person through it. (laugh)

[00:28:52] Bob: That's going on my desk tomorrow. "Rejection is the breakfast of champions. Soak it up!"

[00:28:58] Carroll Harris: You're welcome, you're welcome. And, and I think, and, and so there are a lot of champions out there who are taking that, you know that they're, they're eating their, that daily rejection. And they're doing it with a, a, a heart full of good intent and they're going to warrior through it with their, you know, their thick skin, and they're able to help people. And sometimes you break through, and sometimes you don't. But either way, you're still a champion.

[00:29:22] Bob: Another thing people should try to aware of, is victims of crimes often feel shame or embarrassment and don't like to admit this crime has happened to them. That might even be more true for veterans.

[00:29:37] Carroll Harris: What we encourage people to do is to be brave and to not to let that shame overtake them because they, they have been victimized. And it's okay to come out of that bad place and to go help others. And many of them do. And it takes some bravery to say, "Hey, I made a mistake, and because of that I was victimized by the scam, and I've lost tens of thousands of dollars, and even hundreds of thousands of dollars in some cases, and it, and it, it's really rough looking at the families when they've lost that, and their assets are gone. Because most of the time the assets are gone by the time it gets to us. Sometimes we can recover assets, and we, when we do that, we return it to victims, and many of the times the criminals have already spent the assets and they're gone and we can't recover them. So we encourage these victims to, to be brave and bold and stand up for themselves and to stand up for others and to tell the stories because every time you tell the story you make it harder for the criminals to continue to do it to other people.

[00:30:41] Bob: So what should veterans do to protect themselves or as Carroll likes to say, "up-armor themselves?"

[00:30:48] Carroll Harris: Our veterans out there can protect themselves and protect their veteran buddies by going to USPIS.gov/veterans, and they can see the scams and schemes that are unfolding. And by raising their awareness around those scams and schemes, they are now going to be up-armored and ready to protect the person to their left and their right. Forewarned is forearmed. By raising their awareness, they're protecting not only themselves, but they're protecting the people they love and care about in their community and in the veteran community. Raise awareness, be ready to speak with your 3 to 5, and if you do get approached or if you know someone being approached, encourage them to pause, take a breath, and connect with a battle buddy.

[00:31:31] Bob: And what if someone realizes right now, oh my gosh, I, I, I am in the middle of a crime right now. What should they do?

[00:31:37] Carroll Harris: Break contact and report to appropriate agencies. Just stop. If you don't answer the phone calls, don't answer the emails, reach out. If it, if it's something that's related to one of the scams or schemes that the Inspection Services works, you can report it to us at USPIS.gov. But there's, there are many different types of scams and schemes that are out there. Reach out to law enforcement and report it and break contact. And if you think your identity's already compromised, make sure you reach out to the credit reporting agencies. You can start to mitigate any damage that might have been done. And talk to your battle buddy. You can get, they can help you work the problem because they may see some gaps and fissures in your up-armor. They may see opportunities for you to, to better protect yourself as your, as your nav mate. Don't go it alone. No one has to go it alone. There are people that want to help you.

[00:32:32] Bob: Nobody has to go it alone. Such an important message, particularly for those who have made such sacrifices for us. In addition to the resources that Carrol mentioned, AARP also offers a website, a guidebook, and a host of other resources for veterans at aarp.org/vetsfraudcenter. Michael is still sacrificing. He doesn't really like talking about what happened to him, but he's willing to because he believes it could help others.

[00:33:08] Bob: What is it that you want someone listening to this to learn from your experience?

[00:33:12] Michael Haring: Since I can't be an example in this situation, allow me to be a warning. Um, it's really, really important to, well do a little bit of research and when things get really difficult, especially financially speaking, when things get really difficult, oftentimes there's always somebody holding something really bright and shiny. You know and all you have to do is this, but you know, don't worry about that. Yeah, you know what, worry about that. Worry about that because your short-term financial situation is one thing. Short term situations change. That's why they're called short term. It's the long-term situations that you end up being in that can really, really have a profound impact on your entire life. Talk to people. Do some research. Do your homework.

[00:34:22] Bob: You know with the, with a scam like this though, it, it sounds reasonable enough what we're going to, you know, this is your money, you're entitled to it. We're just going to give it to you upfront and re--, you know, relieve you from this temporary burden you have. Like that doesn't sound like a crazy idea to me.

[00:34:38] Michael Haring: No, it, it, it doesn't. And, and I think that's maybe why they were so successful in getting away with this for so long. I think what they didn't disclose was that they were pocketing a lot of money, because as I said, look, I got low 20 something thousand dollars but the investor for the contract I had, ponied up, I think, over $50,000. And so whatever the rate of return that they disclosed to the investor, that was not consummate with what I was paying.

[00:35:23] Bob: And what they didn't disclose was that this structured cash flow proposition, like many upfront payment plans, was a loan, a very, very expensive loan at that.

[00:35:36] Bob: Yeah, we've, we've covered plenty. Well I want to thank you for your service. I want to thank you for all you've done, and I, and specifically, thank you for uh for your time and for sharing this with me. I know it's going to help somebody out there, so it's, it's really a valuable thing that you've done today.

[00:35:49] Michael Haring: I really hope it does. I hope that people just stay aware, remain vigilant because there, there are people, there are companies out there who are just swindlers, just swindlers, and they don't care if somebody's elderly, they don't care if somebody's a veteran, they, they don't care. They'll, they'll take whatever they can get. They'll take whatever they think they can, they can get away with. So watch out for those people, 'cause oftentimes they're the ones holding the, the, the something shiny that would...

[00:36:24] Bob: Yeah, I really like how you said that. That when you're at your darkest moment, there's always going to be somebody who shows up with something shiny and that can be persuasive when you're desperate, but, but think twice.

[00:36:36] Michael Haring: Yeah, definitely. Think twice. Talk to people. Talk to people. Even if they're not experts, you know get, get another set of eyes to look at it before, before you go entering into some sort of an agreement that might be too good to be true.

[00:36:53] Bob: For The Perfect Scam, I'm Bob Sullivan.

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[00:37:03] Bob: If you have been targeted by a scam or fraud, you are not alone. Call the AARP Fraud Watch Network Helpline at 877-908-3360. Their trained fraud specialists can provide you with free support and guidance on what to do next. Our email address at The Perfect Scam is: theperfectscampodcast@aarp.org, and we want to hear from you. If you've been the victim of a scam or you know someone who has, and you'd like us to tell their story, write to us. That address again is: theperfectscampodcast@aarp.org. Thank you to our team of scambusters; Associate Producer, Annalea Embree; Researcher, Becky Dodson; Executive Producer, Julie Getz; and our Audio Engineer and Sound Designer, Julio Gonzalez. Be sure to find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. For AARP's The Perfect Scam, I'm Bob Sullivan.

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