Trusted Caregiver Steals Oklahoma Woman's Savings

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[00:00:01] Bob: This week on The Perfect Scam.

[00:00:04] Alice Dragoo: I put that money in the bank, and I never even give it a thought, you know, 'cause the only way you could get the money out of the bank was with my card or a check. When I got my February statement, the first of March, I thought, (bleep), I don't got any money in the bank!

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[00:00:25] Bob: Welcome back to The Perfect Scam. I'm your host, Bob Sullivan.

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[00:00:30] Bob: More of us are living alone these days, many, many more. The US Census says nearly one-third of households include just one adult. In 1940, it was fewer than 1 in 10. This is true later in life too. Far more older Americans are living alone than in the past. The independence can be great, but there are additional concerns to think about. Everybody needs help sometime, and today's story starts out innocently enough with a woman hiring a neighbor she'd known for years when she needed some help while recovering from surgery. And things go well for a while, but then something about him changes. Meet Alice Dragoo who decided to make a big move to Oklahoma from Colorado just a couple of years ago.

[00:01:17] Bob: So what made you want to go back to Oklahoma?

[00:01:19] Alice Dragoo: Well I had some good friends down here, and they spotted this house, and I knew I had to get away from the high altitude because of my health, and Oklahoma has some of the best hospitals around, and I thought it would be a good fix for me at my age. I'm now 84, to be close to hospitals and that type of thing, you know, and I got a small house, fixed it up to live in, I can afford to live in it, barely, but uh, you know I’ve made the decision for my health more than anything else.

[00:01:51] Bob: But you are very brave. Most people wouldn't make a big move like that in their 70s. You're very brave.

[00:01:56] Alice Dragoo: Well I thought I'd have one more adventure (laughs).

[00:02:01] Bob: Oklahoma -- One More Adventure. That's the name of your novel right there.

[00:02:05] Alice Dragoo: Yeah.

[00:02:06] Bob: Alice is a planner. She bought the home back in 2014, but it needed a lot of work. She spent three years’ worth of winters getting the place ready before her big move, and she had help from a neighbor named Joey who came highly recommended.

[00:02:23] Alice Dragoo: Oh, it was in 2014, late 2014 or early 2015; he changed the oil in my car and fixed the headlight for me. And he was...

[00:02:34] Bob: How did you meet him?

[00:02:35] Alice Dragoo: Uh, my friends that I knew, he was doing uh, some mechanical work and stuff for them once in a while and they said, "Well if you have any, if you ever have car trouble, call Joey. He's really good, you know, he'll take care of ya, and he's honest and he don't charge a whole lot." And you know it wasn't expensive.

[00:02:55] Bob: And it turns out, Joey is pretty handy. When Alice comes down for winters to work on the place, Joey offers to fix things around the house, often for a very reasonable price.

[00:03:05] Alice Dragoo: If I really needed anything, you know, I could call him.

[00:03:09] Bob: Do you remember even one or two things that he fixed around the house and you were happy with it?

[00:03:13] Alice Dragoo: Oh he changed the water heater. Mine burned up, it's electric.

[00:03:18] Bob: Wow, that's a big deal. Yeah.

[00:03:19] Alice Dragoo: Yeah, and then the, the pipes plugged up. He fixed them from the kitchen sink, and he had, he cleaned that out; I mean these are big items, but it's like you know, he'd mow the lawn. You know anything I asked him to do, I paid him, probably not too well, but enough to make it worth his while, you know. I want to, you know I was fair about it, and he never said he wanted more. Sometimes he'd say that's too much.

[00:03:46] Bob: Joey is a family man, too, and as time passes Alice gets to meet the whole family.

[00:03:52] Alice Dragoo: He brought his wife and boys over. They were driving by one day, they come in, and his boys were just wonderful, and his wife was nice to me. And he was a family man. Totally, he totally he...

[00:04:06] Bob: How old were his boys?

[00:04:07] Alice Dragoo: Oh, they were late grade school at that time. I would say like 4th and 6th grade, something like that, and when I met them.

[00:04:17] Bob: 10 or 12 or something like that?

[00:04:18] Alice Dragoo: Yeah.

[00:04:18] Bob: Yeah, yeah. Okay.

[00:04:19] Alice Dragoo: And then the next winter, he brought the boys over two or three nights that winter, uh his wife had something to do and he'd bring the boys over, bring a pizza. We'd have a pizza party.

[00:04:32] Bob: And so it only makes sense when it's time for Alice to permanently move to Oklahoma, Joey is there to help.

[00:04:38] Alice Dragoo: He arranged for him and a buddy, unload my rat pack that I had rented to haul my crap down here. And you know they put it all in the garage or in the house, wherever I told them to put it.

[00:04:50] Bob: Now settled into the new home in Oklahoma, Alice really likes having Joey and his kids around.

[00:04:57] Alice Dragoo: He brought his youngest boy over one day, and I hadn't mowed the lawn, it wasn't really you know time to mow it, but that week I would of. He's like, "I'm mowing your lawn for ya," he says. And I says, "Well you don't have to." So I opened the garage and then when I turned around, he had his little boy on his lap and he, I had a lawn tractor, you know, mower, it's an old one, it's a Husky, and it was so cute to see dad and son you know going back and forth mowing the lawn, you know, and having fun. The little boy idolized his daddy. And then they spent, oh he was here 2 or 3 hours, and we visited and the boy played and I tell you what, he was like the favorite grandchild. I mean, I loved him just as much as I loved my own grandson. And I got four of the little buggers.

[00:05:46] Bob: Unfortunately, Joey's family situation changes over time and he and his wife separate. Joey is alone, and it's clear he's having a really hard time with that. But in late 2019, when Alice is told by her doctor that she must have surgery, it does mean that Joey is available to help her.

[00:06:04] Alice Dragoo: When I had my shoulder surgery, I knew I couldn't take care of myself, I needed help. So I called the state and, and different, you know, agencies to see what it would cost. And the cost was extravagant, and I didn't want strangers in my home. Joey, my friend, he was going through some really hard times, so I called him and asked him if he was working. He's says, "Oh just whatever I get." I mean he lost everything. So I says, "I'll pay you for a month if you come and take care of me." 'Cause I thought I could trust him, you know, and he had worked with his mother, she used to take care of old people and stuff, and he would go to work with her a lot, and he was the kindest person I've ever met.

[00:06:51] Bob: Joey agrees to move in for the month, and things seem to work out great.

[00:06:57] Bob: Yeah, so yeah you, I mean when you’re living alone and you have surgery, I mean you, you can't, someone has to come take care of you, right?

[00:07:05] Alice Dragoo: Right. You can't drive. You, you, you know you're, I needed someone that I felt I could trust, and he was. I mean that month he took wonderful care of me. He cooked the meals; he cleaned the house. He made the beds, he changed the sheets, he did the laundry, he did the dishes, you know, he took excellent care of me.

[00:07:24] Bob: But timing is everything. This is now early 2020 and right as that month is about to end, the COVID lockdown orders begin.

[00:07:34] Alice Dragoo: So he had to stay here because you know the governor said stay in place, so you know, and so I says, "Well you're welcome to stay with me as long as you buy the groceries." Because I could not afford to feed that man any longer.

[00:07:50] Bob: So now Alice and Joey are officially roommates, and well, things seem to work out really well for both of them.

[00:07:58] Alice Dragoo: And he stayed and he got a job, and he was working hard, paying his bills, and buying the groceries, and he was a joy to have around that first year.

[00:08:09] Bob: In fact, they are more than roommates. It seems Joey really cares about Alice like family.

[00:08:14] Alice Dragoo: Ah, I can't remember. I think it was he came home one time and I wasn't home. And he got worried about me. And then he called a couple of my friends and said, "Where's Alice at?" They didn't know. I had went shopping, and I had forgot to tell him I was going shopping. And he says, "Well you know if you're going to be out, you should let me know so I don't worry about you."

[00:08:36] Bob: (chuckles)

[00:08:37] Alice Dragoo: That was after, you know the, I think it was the first time I went shopping after my surgery. I went to Sam's Club and some other couple of places, grocery stores, you know, whatever, just to get out on my own I think more than anything.

[00:08:50] Bob: Yeah.

[00:08:51] Alice Dragoo: And, and he was so shocked.

[00:08:54] Bob: That shows how much you were like family at that point, yeah.

[00:08:56] Alice Dragoo: Yeah. And see, I trusted him. I loved him.

[00:08:59] Bob: I mean honestly, it sounds like it was a perfect arrangement for both of you.

[00:09:03] Alice Dragoo: It was. It was working out good. He had his privacy, he, I had a big double car garage. He was always, you know, friends would call him and he'd say, bring the car over, and he, him and his friends would fix cars or whatever, and I didn't pay any attention to it because they were out of the house, they never bothered me. And uh, he was young. I figured he had his life and his friends. I didn't need to interfere.

[00:09:26] Bob: Yeah, of course.

[00:09:28] Bob: In fact, their friendship has blossomed so much that one night, Alice and Joey decide to hit a local casino. It's a dark, rainy night, so when they stop at an ATM for Alice to get cash, she lets Joey make the withdrawal. She gives him her debit card and her pin code.

[00:09:46] Alice Dragoo: Oh it was just kind of a soft, not a hard rain. It was just enough to get you wet if you walked around the car, you know what I mean?

[00:09:55] Bob: Sure, sure.

[00:09:56] Alice Dragoo: It was just miserable.

[00:09:57] Bob: And at this point, you'd known him for, by my math, you'd known him 7 years at this point, right?

[00:10:02] Alice Dragoo: Yeah, and I had no reason to distrust him.

[00:10:06] Bob: And Alice thinks nothing more about it. Months go by, but slowly things change a bit in their relationship. Joey begins to date a new woman and so he's not around as often. Alice figures that's okay. He's still helping around the house.

[00:10:22] Alice Dragoo: He wasn't coming home nights. He was still buying groceries, and he would cook a meal when he’d come home, you know, I never knew when he was going to come home and I, and if he cooked something, he'd wake me up and say, "You want to eat?" You know and he always made sure that if he cooked, I had something to eat. He was a good cook. And he was kind to me, but he started, little by little, he was not around. So I figured he had a girlfriend, you know, and he'd be moving in with her or whatever, and he'd be gone.

[00:10:49] Bob: Right at about the same time, Alice is in a car accident. She's okay, but her car is totaled, and she receives an insurance settlement for it. It's not much, a few thousand dollars, but it's enough to make all the difference to someone like Alice. Now she has a little cushion.

[00:11:06] Alice Dragoo: Anyhow, I put that money in the bank, and I never even give it a thought, you know, 'cause the only way you could get the money out of the bank was with my card or a check.

[00:11:15] Bob: As time passes and Joey's relationship progresses, he's around less and less. Alice starts to nudge him about making a change.

[00:11:25] Alice Dragoo: He was busy with her and I figured, and I told him, "If you don't get a job we're going to have to make other arrangements. You got to have a good paying job." "Well I'm looking for work. I'm looking for work."

[00:11:36] Bob: As far as Alice knows, Joey is still looking for work when she sits down at the kitchen table to go through her mail one morning, and with a quick glance at her bank account monthly statement, everything about her relationship with Joey changes.

[00:11:51] Alice Dragoo: When I got my February statement, the first of March, I thought, (bleep), I don't got any money in the bank!

[00:11:56] Bob: Wow, what was that like?

[00:11:57] Alice Dragoo: I was mad, hot to trot.

[00:12:00] Bob: So Alice trots right to the bank to figure out where all the money has gone? A teller there gives her the bad news. Her account has been emptied through a series of ATM withdrawals.

[00:12:12] Alice Dragoo: So I says, "I didn't make those," you know, we pulled up two-month ATM withdrawals. I says, "Look, those are all after I'm in bed,” you know.

[00:12:21] Bob: Wow.

[00:12:22] Bob: One of the withdrawals even happened while Alice was on a trip, out of state to visit her sister who was seriously ill.

[00:12:31] Alice Dragoo: Last time I saw her alive. I can prove I was out of state. There's no way I could have drawn that money out.

[00:12:38] Bob: So the bank opens an investigation and it doesn't take long to figure out what's going on. There is video from some of the withdrawals.

[00:12:47] Alice Dragoo: And then they showed these pictures, ATM pictures, who was drawing the money out, and everything. I was flabbergasted.

[00:12:55] Bob: It was Joey.

[00:12:58] Alice Dragoo: He was taking my card out of my purse, you know 'cause I sleep, when I sleep, I sleep like there's no tomorrow. I don't hear nothing, and he was drawing anywhere from 3 to 5 hundred a night out of my checking account.

[00:13:13] Bob: Over the course of about two months, Joey withdrew about $10,000 from Alice's checking account.

[00:13:20] Alice Dragoo: I tell you what, it, I was brokenhearted, I was broke. I didn't understand, I still, it was hard for me to conceive that this man, young man, would do that to me. He'd been so good to me before. I couldn't understand it. I was hurt, I was, I kinda depressed, I, I was in a state of shock. Well, 'cause I was so distraught, broken. He about broke me, first time in my life I’d ever been that humiliated or I can’t describe the feeling... lost. I don’t, I was just in a state of shock.

[00:14:00] Bob: I mean you went from having a, a friend, someone you really looked at as a, as your favorite grandchild to, to this person...

[00:14:06] Alice Dragoo: Yeah.

[00:14:07] Bob: ...taking from you. That's, that's a huge shock.

[00:14:10] Alice Dragoo: Oh yeah. (chuckles) I'm surprised my old pacemaker let me live through it. (laughs)

[00:14:18] Bob: Hmm, well thank God it did.

[00:14:20] Bob: She is also staring at a financial nightmare.

[00:14:25] Alice Dragoo: That's a lot of money at my age. I can't go out and work and earn more money. That was my nest egg. I could buy things on sale that I would need, and then pay it back. And I wouldn't be paying interest to anybody else, credit cards and that. Well because I didn't have the money to pay my credit cards off, it just, bang, it just snowballed. You know...

[00:14:48] Bob: Yeah, of course.

[00:14:49] Alice Dragoo: And now I live on, after I pay all my bills and everything, I have $20 left to live on. That's in case...

[00:14:57] Bob: So, but he, but he stole, he stole just about everything that you had, right?

[00:15:01] Alice Dragoo: Oh yeah, he wiped me out, yeah, he wiped me out of any cushion.

 [00:15:07] Bob: So Alice calls her daughter in Kansas City who races down to help her the next day. She also calls Joey, but she doesn't let on that she knows about the money.

[00:15:18] Alice Dragoo: I told him, "You gotta get home and clean your bedroom. My daughter's coming down to stay a couple days, and your bedroom's trashed, and she's got to stay in there."

[00:15:23] Bob: But you'd, you didn't want to, you didn't want to confront him on the phone, you wanted to make, get him to the house so you could talk to him in person, right?

[00:15:30] Alice Dragoo: Yeah, I wanted to talk to him in person.

[00:15:32] Bob: And once he's there, she asks Joey point blank...

[00:15:36] Alice Dragoo: So he came home and I asked him. I set him down at the dining room table, and I, "I'm going to ask you one time, did you take the money out of my account at the bank?” He looked at me, “Alice, I wouldn’t do that to you.” He lied straight to my face. I don’t know what I’d a done if he said he did. I still would have called the law, I suppose, but he lied, and I, when he looked me straight in the eye and lied to me, it broke my heart.

[00:16:04] Bob: So Alice throws Joey out of her house. Within a few days he sends a text message to Alice, which she shared with a local television station, KFOR. It reads in part, "I'm sorry I let you down. But I've always intended on returning what I borrowed. I'm sorry for the pain I've caused you. I never wanted to hurt you. Thank you for helping me. I love you. I'll swing by and get my stuff." Still, when Alice's daughter arrives, they call the cops.

[00:16:36] Bob: Was it a hard decision to call the police?

[00:16:38] Alice Dragoo: I didn't, my daughter did.

[00:16:40] Bob: Your daughter did, okay. Yeah.

[00:16:41] Alice Dragoo: She says, "Mom, we're calling the police. This is wrong." And she stood beside me. She stayed here for 4 or 5 days.

[00:16:48] Bob: Alice gives all the evidence she's accumulated to the police. She now thinks Joey has stolen some of her belongings as well, but nothing happens for several months. Then in July 2022, police issue a warrant for Joey. He's arrested in October.

[00:17:05] Bob: Do you remember, how did you find out that he was arrested?

[00:17:07] Alice Dragoo: One of the girls at my at my seniors group, she's one of these nosey, busybodies on the computer.

[00:17:13] Bob: (laughs)

[00:17:14] Alice Dragoo: I'm serious, she's, she called me, said, "Joey's been arrested." I says, “What?” She’s, “Yeah.” And so she pulled it up and then I called the DA and uh after that I went to the DA and he told me what all was going on.

[00:17:28] Bob: How did it feel when you saw the news that he was arrested?

[00:17:31] Alice Dragoo: I felt, it's time. He has to pay for what he did. But I wasn’t wrong, he did it, he has to take responsibility for his action or be made to.

[00:17:44] Bob: Alice attends several of Joey's court appearances. Earlier this year, he pleaded guilty to one charge of exploiting an elderly person, and a firearm possession charge. During that last hearing, he apologizes to her.

[00:17:57] Alice Dragoo: He told me at the last court hearing, when he admitted he stole money from me without my permission, he was in custody at the time; he walked over to me and in his orange jumpsuit and chain, and said, “I’m sorry, I did wrong. You didn’t deserve this. And I still love you, but I did wrong.” He admitted it.

[00:18:20] Bob: Joey receives two 10-year suspended sentences, and he's required to pay restitution to Alice, $149 a month for the next 10 years.

[00:18:32] Bob: But did it feel good to get that first check at least?

[00:18:34] Alice Dragoo: Oh, I felt so good. At least I knew he was trying. I felt like this is going to work. Well then, I didn't get the other check for three months. I don't know if I'm going to get a check today or not. I could use it.

[00:18:48] Bob: Yeah, how important are those checks for you?

[00:18:50] Alice Dragoo: Very important. If I get that check, I could go, I could get stuff that I can’t get on my Social Security, a little extra food. Maybe I can go out and eat once a month with my friend at a restaurant. Or maybe I can pay a, off some bills that I have, you know, a little extra, get them paid off.

[00:19:13] Bob: But you told me you only have $20 or so at the end of the month. Another $149 would make a big difference, right?

[00:19:18] Alice Dragoo: Oh yeah. Boy would it make a difference. It’d make my life so much easier ... if I could depend on it. That would take care of my, like right now I had to have a new pacemaker put in. Well the bill is $246. I’m having to pay $30 a month on that bill. I got a electric wheelchair I’m paying $50 a month on. Well those will die off middle of next year, ‘cause I’ll have those paid off. But until they’re paid off, well then what other hospital bill am I going to have, at my age, that I’ll have to make payments again?

[00:20:00] Bob: So for now, Alice takes things month by month, day by day.

[00:20:06] Alice Dragoo: Yeah, I mean you have to. I, by going to food banks and eating with the seniors on a the senior nutritional program here in Oklahoma City, I’m able to get a hot meal every day, 5 days a week, if I go every day.

[00:20:21] Bob: Great.

[00:20:21] Alice Dragoo: And by going to food banks and I get some good food, I can supplement my food, but it, it’s like I’d never, my pride is hurt. I’ve had to ask help...

[00:20:32] Bob: Alice is still conflicted about everything that's happened and how she feels about Joey, even going back to that last time she saw him when he apologized in the courtroom.

[00:20:42] Alice Dragoo: Yeah, he walked over to me and tried to hug me. I hugged him, because I still love him, I just don’t like this bad Joey. The good Joey I love, the bad one, I don’t want anything to do with. It is ...

[00:20:56] Bob: That must be so hard to have both those feelings inside you.

[00:21:00] Alice Dragoo: Yeah, it is. I want to forgive him. God says we should forgive him. I can't forget.

[00:21:05] Bob: Yeah, yeah, sure.

[00:21:07] Alice Dragoo: I mean... I.. I just, I try real hard to go by what's right and what's wrong.

[00:21:15] Bob: How do you feel about Joey today?

[00:21:16] Alice Dragoo: Frustrated. (laughs) I don’t want anything to do with him on one hand, I can’t have anything to do with him because it’s too heartbreaking.

[00:21:26] Bob: Yeah, yeah.

[00:21:27] Alice Dragoo: I don't need that in my life at this point.

[00:21:31] Bob: Hmm-hmm, hmm-hmm.

[00:21:32] Alice Dragoo: It's like, the lie. I, I think what hurt me the most was his, one, him doing it, the second was his lying to me. I, I can't deal with that. I'm not going to deal with it. I'm too damn old to change my ways, you know. I don't need that in my life anymore.

[00:21:50] Bob: The incident has left scars on Alice that will not soon heal.

[00:21:55] Alice Dragoo: I am scared to make friends now, intimate friends, not intimate, you know that away, but I mean close friends.

[00:22:02] Bob: But yeah, yeah. Yeah.

[00:22:04] Alice Dragoo: I, I like people, I really like people. But I, I’m always wondering, what do they want from me? What are they, why are they being friendly to me? I don’t want that. Do they like me for me and my personality? Or do they think they can get something from me? That’s an awful way to live, to be so distrustful to someone that's just trying to be nice to you. And as sad as that is to say, when people are being good to you, you can't trust them. And, and I don't want to live that way and no one else wants to live that way, but I'm sorry, that's the way it is now. You can't trust anybody. And that's horrible. I grew up trust--, you know we never locked our doors or took the keys out of the car or nothing, you know. And then now, you have to lock up everything.

[00:22:53] Bob: Alice said she wishes her bank had warned her when all these unusual middle of the night ATM withdrawals started happening. And she urges people to set up alerts with their bank to do just that.

[00:23:04] Alice Dragoo: Well, you got to lock up your, talk to your bank. Have them set up safeguards. If they see any unusual activity, let you know immediately by phone call, not a text, not an email, have them do the courtesy of calling you person-to-person, because a lot of us seniors aren’t really uh, literate on computers and emails and stuff like that. You know send a letter, you know, hey, we’re kinda worried about your account. Uh, are you sure these are yours? You know anything. But check, they need to check with their bank, and have some, uh, sys--, system set up somehow. Watch it and don’t trust anybody with any of your personal information.

[00:23:49] Bob: I think that's pretty wise. I mean it's, you're right, it's sad to have to live that way, but it's, it's um, you know, when people...

[00:23:55] Alice Dragoo: It's, it's what it is.

[00:23:57] Bob: Yeah.

[00:23:58] Alice Dragoo: Yeah, you have to be very, very careful, and even then, you're not sure. You got to be able to watch your own stuff and make sure you watch it daily or weekly or whatever, and just watch everything, especially your finances.

[00:24:15] Bob: You've got to watch everything, especially your finances. I wish life wasn't like this, but that is how things are. But also, you have to trust. As I mentioned at the top of this episode, many of us are living longer and living alone. And you can't do everything yourself. There will be times when you have to trust someone else to help you. To talk more about how to prepare for these challenges, we have Joy Loverde here to talk with us. She's author of the book, "The Complete Eldercare Planner," and she speaks often about solo aging, learning who you can trust and how much you can trust them. Well, it's not easy, caring situations that might seem beneficial at first can turn sour.

[00:25:01] Joy Loverde: I see uh so many people who are alone, and they do forge relationships with caregivers, and I, I think of Joe as, as a caregiver of some sort. And it's very common. And of course, this situation doesn't happen to everyone. Not everyone we invite into the home as a caregiver or a helper, is, is bad. We do want to trust people, but if they're not, but can we always?

[00:25:31] Bob: I think it's, this is a hard concept that trust is not necessarily an on/off switch, right? That there are levels of trust, and it's like just because you, you wouldn't give a pin code to someone in your family, it doesn't mean you don't trust them, right? You can, you can set up these, these boundaries at, at different layers, and, and still protect yourself, even though you are trusting someone.

[00:25:53] Joy Loverde: That's right. Now that's a tough conversation to have. So most people avoid conflict.

[00:25:59] Bob: Of course, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:26:01] Joy Loverde: It's just the, the problem is not having the conversation, the problem is avoiding conflict.

[00:26:08] Bob: But conflict is a natural part of life and we're all going to face conflicts and choices like this as we get older. According to the latest US Census Bureau data, about 28% of people 65 and older live by themselves, about 6 million men and 10 million women. For comparison, only 1 in 10 older Americans lived on their own in 1950. Alice is one of those 10 million women, and her situation is common. She was having surgery and turned to a friend for help, let him into her life, and then got hurt.

[00:26:42] Bob: We've done plenty of stories involving some version of, of this, uh elder fraud on, on The Perfect Scam. In some cases it's a, you know, cleaning company, in some cases it's friends, in some cases it's family. Uh is there, is there a, a generic brand term for what we should be calling this?

[00:26:58] Joy Loverde: Well we, in the industry we call this elder abuse and neglect.

[00:27:04] Bob: And, and eld--, elder abuse often involves financial abuse, does it?

[00:27:09] Joy Loverde: Yes, so it could be physical, mental, financial.

[00:27:14] Bob: Elder abuse; physical, mental, or financial is among the most underreported crimes which only makes it more painful.

[00:27:22] Bob: It really is and it, I think part of the reason these things happen is it's, these are difficult topics to talk about, right?

[00:27:29] Joy Loverde: Well, the, the typical person who has been scammed knowing, like Alice, in Alice's case where it is an outsider, I'm surprised she talked to you. That was something that was running through my mind; most people do not tell anyone. When it happens within the family, um, many times a family member won't find out until it's revealed to them that they, the parent is usually embarrassed about it or they are prevented from talking about it.

[00:28:02] Bob: This kind of silence helps criminals get away with their elder abuse. But the culture of silence around money in general is an enabler too.

[00:28:12] Joy Loverde: Yeah, nobody, and there have been so many articles how nobody in the family talks about money. I mean we just don't have that kind of culture. And so it's, it's a, I read a very interesting article once where it said, families who do talk about money have had role models ahead of time with parents who have role modeled that scenario and how to do it, and that usually uh is not the case for most families. So it's, it's very difficult. If you don't, if you don't, like many of us don't even know what our siblings make for a living, you know, or if they have long-term care insurance. And then parents, unfortunately, what a lot of what they do is they say my money is none of your business without really realizing that the money in the family is a family situation. When mom and dad run out of money, it's everybody's problem. It's not just the parents' problem. And don't we, hardly, many family just don't think like that.

[00:29:10] Bob: A lot of Joy's work involves getting people to have these kinds of uncomfortable conversations before a crisis hits. Especially for this group of adults who wish to live alone at home.

[00:29:23] Joy Loverde: Boy we, we have to kind of take a step back and look at it as managing certain aspects of, um, taking care of ourselves as we age. What you were beginning to describe was the process of aging in place and how realistic is that? Then there's the financial, right, we've been talking about. Then there's the legal. Then there is the housing, if we're not going to age in place and so on, and caregivers. And so it can be overwhelming if we look at it as this big problem, or we can step back and take a look at it little by little by little. How realistic is it at some point to live in a house that has 25 stairs going up with strangers delivering groceries and actually are we going to let them in the house? I mean these, these are all things that we could contemplate ahead of time and get ahead of the problems.

[00:30:20] Bob: You know that's, I'm, I'm glad you're saying that, but again this is, wow, the things you would fight against if you've lived in this place for 20, 30, 40 years, you know moving out feels like, you know, feels like the end of something, right, but you know managing those, those emotional decisions is probably is as difficult as anything else, right?

[00:30:36] Joy Loverde: You're right. Actually, that's a really good time to bring in a professional move manager who will help us sort, not only our stuff, but our emotions. And that it is a process, the process of moving in any case, really is better when we hire someone to help us see through what we need to get through in order to move on and instead of giving up something, creating a, a, a better, more better life in terms of not having our stuff hold us back.

[00:31:09] Bob: You have a book called, "The Complete Eldercare Planner." I'm wondering, since we have you here, are there a few things that folks who are in, in the middle of this decision-making process, including, how do I craft a life where I'm not vulnerable, um that, that they, they don't think of? What are the things that, that are surprising to people who are, are in this situation?

[00:31:30] Joy Loverde: I would say the number one thing is um, they don't anticipate other people around them looking to them as a caregiver. So let me give you an example. We've, I've been doing a lot of work with people who live alone; many of my talks are about that subject. So here they are in a room engaged in the conversation is who's going to take care of me when I need it, right? But what they don't think about is the other side of the coin, and that is people who are in their lives right now, who may come knocking on their door, and they say to them, I need your help, will you help me and that comes out of nowhere typically. What I suggest is that we begin to have conversations with people we are not related to. And we have caregiving conversations with them. Who is going to take care of you? I'm not up for it. I, it, don't look to me, but let's make a plan. Do you have children? Do you have a plan? Do you have professionals in your, in your social and uh professional network? When we don't talk to each other as we grow old together, especially with our friends and neighbors, we become unpleasantly surprised at how we immediately become caregivers, and we may not want to.

[00:32:51] Bob: Hmm, that's interesting. People start making demands on your time or your money, or just your emotional headspace, right?

[00:32:58] Joy Loverde: Hm-hmm, yeah, and then what do you do if your best friend in the world says to you, and oh, by the way, I don't have any money. What do we, what do, you know, it happens all the time, Bob. And so, so one of the things I do is encourage people to start talking to each other, even if they want to say no, it's not going to be me.

[00:33:15] Bob: On the, the cover of your book here, this, one of the things that you uh you offer to people is to learn about how to use technology to help with caregiving. Can you talk about that a little bit?

[00:33:25] Joy Loverde: Absolutely. Well COVID did us one favor, right, and what it did was it taught uh people who were home alone how to use or they weren't even alone, but how to use telemedicine. So that broke a lot of barriers. So once people began to become more comfortable with telemedicine, they, they saw it was real, and it was legitimate. So the other thing about technology that I stress is the need for a, a smartphone, not just a cellphone, but a smartphone, because everything is going in that direction. And I don't know about you, but I've been reading a lot of articles about how technology will leave anyone behind financially if they do not know how to bank virtually. So how do we, as individuals who are growing older, have a plan to stay in touch with technology? What is our support network there?

[00:34:20] Bob: You know one thing that I, uh I stress whenever I have a chance to talk about it, is technology can be confusing and it's, it's often a mixed bag, but it's so easy to, to check on your accounts. Alice might have caught a problem, you know, with her monthly statement if she was using technology she could, she would have seen something wrong with her balance within a day.

[00:34:40] Joy Loverde: Well in a minute.

[00:34:41] Bob: Yeah, yeah.

[00:34:42] Joy Loverde: She would, all she had to do was um, set a limit on spending in or all of her accounts she could have notifications. Okay, more than $10 is taken out. You will get notified. Or if somebody charges your charge card for more than $10, or whatever amount, you will be notified immediately.

[00:35:02] Bob: The other thing you can do with these alerts is you can also send them to someone else. So you could set it up so that a relative, a friend, a daughter, a son, whatever, can get, can get a similar alert when there's unusual activity or even, you know, a withdrawal of more than $100 or something like that. I think that's a good idea too.

[00:35:19] Joy Loverde: Right.

[00:35:20] Bob: Joy advocates setting up a series of professional relationships to help with a whole series of issues that will inevitably arise.

[00:35:28] Joy Loverde: I just want to start out by saying, when we think about help in the future, we tend to think that we're going to need healthcare help, physical, you know, and medical, but it goes far beyond that because we're going to need help in the financial, legal, social, and daily activities. So a list of people who could help us in all different areas might start with a professional like an elder law attorney or an estate planning attorney. We could look to a professional who could guide us in, in medical decisions like a patient advocate or an aging lifecare manager. These are professionals who do this for a living. If we're concerned about our daily finances, we could certainly hire a daily money manager and make sure they're certified. Our local banks are a, an incredible resource for financial advice, also for setting up a fiduciary, someone who is assigned to our money and only has our best concerns in mind. So go to the local bank and um, talk to the trust department.

[00:36:36] Bob: And I think it's so important to do this really before you need it, right, because you want to have these relationships in place for that day that you say to someone, you know, this guy's been helping me around the house, but suddenly this thing happened. What, what do you think about it, right? You want to have those people in place ahead of time.

[00:36:52] Joy Loverde: Yeah, we have to because trust takes time, and I left out one really important resource that I would love for, for everyone to know about. If you're an adult child and you're listening to this podcast, go to your employer, if they have an employer eldercare benefits, if they have an employer eldercare benefits department, and find out what resources are available to you and your parents.

[00:37:18] Bob: That's interesting. That might be even free, right?

[00:37:20] Joy Loverde: Absolutely. The tendency for an employee who is also a, a potential caregiver for parents is they don't tend to use the employer eldercare benefits before they have a crisis. But go there now and you could find out that you probably have free legal advice, free financial advice, perhaps they have group long-term care insurance and so on.

[00:37:43] Bob: That sounds great. I, I do like the repeated advice of getting in touch with people and having these conversations before there's a crisis so that somebody's in place and there the trust is in place when you do have the crisis.

[00:37:54] Alice Dragoo: Yeah, I, my job is to try to influence people to plan for something they never want to deal with.

[00:38:00] Bob: Oh wow, that's, that sounds like a heavy lift.

[00:38:02] Joy Loverde: (chuckles) It is.

[00:38:05] Bob: It can all seem overwhelming, but help is available. And the key is to get help before you find yourself in a crisis and a vulnerable position.

[00:38:16] Joy Loverde: I want them to know that there is so much help available, and that if they are willing to make the effort to look for it, they won't be on overwhelm, and they will get all the help that they need. People just don't think that there's help, but there's so much help.

[00:38:33] Bob: For The Perfect Scam, I'm Bob Sullivan.

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[00:38:42] Bob: If you have been targeted by a scam or fraud, you are not alone. Call the AARP Fraud Watch Network Helpline at 877-908-3360. Their trained fraud specialists can provide you with free support and guidance on what to do next. Our email address at The Perfect Scam is: theperfectscampodcast@aarp.org, and we want to hear from you. If you've been the victim of a scam or you know someone who has, and you'd like us to tell their story, write to us. That address again is: theperfectscampodcast@aarp.org. Thank you to our team of scambusters; Associate Producer, Annalea Embree; Researcher, Becky Dodson; Executive Producer, Julie Getz; and our Audio Engineer and Sound Designer, Julio Gonzalez. Be sure to find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. For AARP's The Perfect Scam, I'm Bob Sullivan.

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