Ohio Woman Comes Face-to-Face With Her Scammers

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[00:00:01] Bob: This week on The Perfect Scam.

[00:00:03] Bob: So they drive up to your house?

[00:00:06] Lori English: They drive up to the house, three men, they come in my house. They open the box on the floor of my living room and count. They were polite. They didn't say hardly anything. They left with my money. And I remember thinking, they're walking out of my house with half of my life savings.

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[00:00:29] Bob: Welcome back to The Perfect Scam. I'm your host, Bob Sullivan.

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[00:00:34] Bob: There's a dangerous new trend in scams, one we want to tell you about right away. We tend to think of online crime as virtual, thefts in which the criminal and the victims are miles away, maybe continents away. But increasingly, in-person, real-life meetings have become a part of online crime. Money mules are being sent into homes and driveways to pick up payments and that adds a very, very dangerous element to these crimes. Tragically, one unwitting money mule was shot and killed recently by someone who was the target of a grandparent scam. Today's story involves a situation like that. Criminals arrived at our victim's home twice, in this case to pick up a pizza box sized cache of gold bars. But in an amazing twist, well, this story has at least a partly happy ending that's almost hard to believe. But it comes as a very serious cautionary tale we hope you'll tell your loved ones about it. Meet Lori English who was happily enjoying her hobbies during early retirement when our story starts. Hobbies like singing and playing the guitar.

[00:01:49] Lori English: (singing) "I'm going back someday, come what may to a blue bayou. Where the folks are fine, and the world is mine on Blue Bayou."

[00:02:08] Bob: Oh my God, I'm melting over here. That was great.

[00:02:10] Lori English: Ah.

[00:02:11] Bob: That was fantastic.

[00:02:12] Lori English: Thank you.

[00:02:13] Bob: I'm a big Linda Ronstadt fan, of course, so.

[00:02:17] Lori English: Yes. huge.

[00:02:20] Bob: Lori lives with her pets in Ohio.

[00:02:24] Lori English: I'm in Pataskala, Ohio.

[00:02:27] Bob: So it's in Licking County, right?

[00:02:29] Lori English: Yes.

[00:02:30] Bob: So where is Licking County?

[00:02:32] Lori English: It is in central Ohio.

[00:02:35] Bob: So it's maybe, it's east of Columbus, right? By like an hour or so?

[00:02:39] Lori English: Yeah, uh no, actually we are pretty much attached to Columbus at this point. We're about from Columbus proper to Pataskala proper, it's about a half an hour.

[00:02:48] Bob: Uh, and Columbus has spread since the last time I've gotten there, I suppose.

[00:02:53] Lori English: It has grown by leaps and bounds.

[00:02:56] Bob: Yeah, I, I want people to understand where you are, because while you are now part of Columbus it's still a pretty rural area where you live exactly, right?

[00:03:05] Lori English: Where I live exactly, yes, it is rural. I'm out in the country on 13 acres.

[00:03:10] Bob: It sounds very beautiful. I know that you were, worked really hard and saved up so you could retire in your early 50s. What was your job before then?

[00:03:16] Lori English: Administrative assistant.

[00:03:17] Bob: You were an administrative assistant.

[00:03:19] Lori English: Did that for over 25 years, yeah.

[00:03:22] Bob: And saved up and you were able to retire, and then so how have you been spending your time since you retired?

[00:03:26] Lori English: I had been doing a lot of the things that I've, that you know you put off when you're working like being lazy. And I am on a horse farm, and I have my own animals and pets. I work with them quite a bit, just spending time with friends and visiting family, and yeah.

[00:03:46] Bob: And as you now know, she also plays guitar and sings.

[00:03:52] Bob: What genre?

[00:03:52] Lori English: Oh, gosh. Everything, it's easier to say what I don't do.

[00:03:58] Bob: Good for you.

[00:03:58] Lori English: I'm pretty much stuck in the '70s, '60s, '70s, and '80s.

[00:04:02] Bob: Give me some band names.

[00:04:03] Lori English: Linda Ronstadt, Bonnie Raitt, Badfinger, Chicago, Journey, Fleetwood Mac. Patsy Cline's one of my favorites. Etta James, yeah, all kinds of different stuff.

[00:04:19] Lori English: (clip of her singing) "what a special night, when the stars are bright, if I could only see. That familiar sunrise, your sleepy eyes, how happy I'd be."

[00:04:37] Bob: It was a normal day of taking care of things around the house and wondering about her next music appearance when a call came that would change Lori's life.

[00:04:48] Lori English: I know that I took the call in the kitchen, so I was probably you know doing something domestic in the kitchen.

[00:04:55] Bob: Making lunch or something, right?

[00:04:56] Lori English: Probably, yeah.

[00:04:58] Bob: What's the first thing the person says?

[00:04:59] Lori English: First of all, the, the screen on my phone said Social Security Administration. So I picked it up. And the gentleman said, "My name is so and so, I'm with the Social Security Administration. We have information that your Social Security number has been compromised, and we need to uh take action immediately."

[00:05:20] Bob: Oh my God. So what's...

[00:05:22] Lori English: Yeah.

[00:05:22] Bob: ...what's your first thought?

[00:05:24] Lori English: My first thought was, oh my God. And then he said, "Your, your name is being used on accounts that are being used to launder money and to traffic drugs through the major cartels."

[00:05:34] Bob: Traffic drugs, major cartels? Wow.

[00:05:36] Lori English: Yeah, I was, I was, and then immediately I'm scared.

[00:05:40] Bob: Lori is very scared, but the person on the phone tells her to stay on the line, that help is on the way.

[00:05:47] Lori English: And before I could say anything, he passed me onto another person. And this guy said my name was so and so, "I'm with the DEA, my badge is blah-blah-blah. We are working hard to determine what's going on with your accounts and in the meantime while we're doing that, I'm going to connect you with a gentleman with the Department of Treasury who is going to help you help us clear your name, because we know this is identity fraud."

[00:06:17] Bob: And so another person takes over the conversation. He says his name is Steven Collins.

[00:06:24] Lori English: So I, I talked to Steven and he said, he repeated what the other two had said and he said that they, we need to liquidate my funds and, and secure them with the Department of Treasury, so if I'm indicted the Feds can't freeze my assets and take them.

[00:06:42] Bob: But he wants you to liquidate your funds.

[00:06:44] Lori English: Right. And I said, "What does that mean?" And he said, "We need to get all of your money out, there are various ways to do that, and we'll take your money and keep it for you safe at the Treasury Department and that way the Feds can't take it if you're indicted. If you're indicted, if you're indicted, if you're indicted." Oh man, I was scared to death.

[00:07:06] Bob: "If you're indicted. If you're indicted." The words keep repeating in her head over and over. So Lori listens carefully as Steven tells her what steps she has to take to protect herself and her money.

[00:07:20] Lori English: The first thing he told me to do was to go to the bank and take all the money out of my savings account. He asked me what my balances were. And I did that. And then he told me to put that in a safe place. So I did that. And all this time he's telling me, you cannot tell anybody about this because not only will it hamper the investigation, but it will also affect your safety. Oh, my fricking God. And I said, I said are the, "Do these people know who I am? Am I, am I safe? Should I be scared?" And he said, "Yeah, you should be scared, but don't worry, Lori, we've got eyes on you all the time now. And we are monitoring your phone calls and your emails," and he said, "I've got your back. We gotcha."

[00:08:04] Bob: Oh boy. But when he said the word, safety, that, that took it to another place for you, right?

[00:08:09] Lori English: It did. It really did. And then when he says he's got, they've got eyes on me all the time, and lo, the law enforcement is involved and aware, you know why would I, I, I was so scared at that point I'm thinking, okay, I've got to do what he tells me because he's the only one who can keep me safe. It was horrible.

[00:08:23] Bob: And just for, just for some context. I mean you are in a rural area of Ohio, and at this point you're by yourself, right?

[00:08:30] Lori English: Yes. Yes.

[00:08:31] Bob: So this is pretty freaky.

[00:08:32] Lori English: Yes. And knowing that they have my information and, and my address and I don't know who these people are, and are they coming for me?

[00:08:39] Bob: Lori is so concerned about all that's going on that she even makes contingency plans for her pets.

[00:08:48] Lori English: Because I didn't know what was, you know I'm, I'm thinking about things like, what if the Feds show up at my door and take me away? Who's going to take care of my animals? I had to get my affairs in order and try not to look suspicious about it.

[00:09:00] Bob: What were you going to do with them?

[00:09:01] Lori English: I have, luckily, I have in my will already who takes care, who, who would get my dogs, who would get my cats, or any other animals I may have. So I had that knowledge that they would be cared for. I also knew that I would be able to talk to people--, wherever they were going to take me, I'd be able to make phone calls to get that taken care of.

[00:09:21] Bob: But so a friend or a neighbor or something was going...

[00:09:23] Lori English: Right. Right.

[00:09:24] Bob: ... to take responsibility for your pets, wow.

[00:09:26] Lori English: Yeah, my, my family would have taken them.

[00:09:29] Bob: Almost immediately, Lori empties her bank accounts as instructed.

[00:09:34] Bob: Do, do you remember roughly how much it was?

[00:09:36] Lori English: It was only a few grand.

[00:09:38] Bob: And where, where did you put that money?

[00:09:39] Lori English: I put that in my safe here at home.

[00:09:41] Bob: Steven checks in with Lori as she empties her bank accounts. He says he's continuing to work her case, continuing to try to clear her name, and he keeps on checking in with her day after day.

[00:09:54] Lori English: We spoke every day, sometimes two and three times a day, and he was asking me, you know, what are your plans for today? Are you going to be going out? Give me a call when you get back home, you know do whatever you need to do. But just, you know, kind of keep me, give me an idea of where you are and what you're doing.

[00:10:10] Bob: That's just craz--, so at like what, 9:30 in the morning he would call and say good morning, what's your plans?

[00:10:15] Lori English: Hmm-hm. Yep, exactly. "How are you doing? Do you need anything? Can I help you?" And you know he was very much a compassionate character.

[00:10:25] Bob: When he said do you need anything, did you ever respond with, I mean how, how would you respond to that?

[00:10:30] Lori English: I would, you know I, I tried to keep it as uplifting as I could. And I would say, "Yeah, I need these people off my back. I need you to clear my name."

[00:10:38] Bob: But to do that, she's going to have to keep moving her money around. Lori has a Roth IRA and a few days after she empties her bank account, Steven gives Lori the bad news that she's going to have to dig into that Roth account too. He tells her...

[00:10:53] Lori English: "You need to go and, and withdraw half of your Roth money and go buy gold."

[00:10:59] Bob: Withdraw half your Roth money and go buy gold? It's all so confusing, but Lori is desperate to get this all over with, so she schedules an appointment with her financial advisor.

[00:11:13] Lori English: And beforehand, Steven Collins told me, "You cannot tell him what this is, what you're doing this for for real because we're investigating them too."

[00:11:23] Bob: Hmm.

[00:11:24] Lori English: "You can't compromise the investigation so just tell him you're going to invest in gold." That's what I told hm, and he said, "Lori, is somebody asking you to do this?" And I said, "No," I said, "I just want to kind of, you know, I just want to do something different. Change my portfolio." And I had to lie and convince him.

[00:11:42] Bob: And so how much money was this about?

[00:11:44] Lori English: This was about 250 grand.

[00:11:47] Bob: Wow.

[00:11:48] Lori English: Yeah.

[00:11:48] Bob: And this is money that you had been depositing for 20, 30, 40 years?

[00:11:52] Lori English: 40 years or work.

[00:11:57] Bob: Once Lori gets the cash into her account, her next step is to...

[00:12:01] Lori English: Well, I had to find a place to buy that much gold. I found a place close by, and called them on the phone, or no, I went in, I went into the store and talked to the guy and they really didn't bat an eye about it because at that time, there was a run on gold. And people were buying that amount of gold regularly. Steven said that there would be an undercover officer in the store with me, and there would be one in the parking lot. He said, "We have eyes on you. You'll be perfectly safe. Don't worry."

[00:12:30] Bob: Wow. So you think someone's following you into the store basically.

[00:12:33] Lori English: Yeah. So I'm in the store, and about 30 seconds later a, a guy in jeans and a ballcap comes in. And I'm thinking, okay, that must be him. So they take me in the back room, and I count it and, and I, and I left. And I, the manager walked me to my car...

[00:12:57] Bob: Now I don't have a good sense of how much gold this is. I mean could you carry that much gold home?

[00:12:52] Lori English: Yes. It, it surprised me. It came in the size, a box the size of a small pizza, 'cause they were 1-ounce bars.

[00:12:59] Bob: Really?

[00:12:59] Lori English: Yes. 125 1-ounce bars.

[00:13:01] Bob: Oh wow. Huh.

[00:13:02] Lori English: And it was, maybe 10 pounds, not even 10 pounds probably. I thought, you know, I'm going to, how am I going to carry all this gold?

[00:13:09] Bob: Yeah, I'm picturing you needing a wagon or something for this. Yeah.

[00:13:12] Lori English: I know. Yeah, it was just in a small pizza box type thing.

[00:13:16] Bob: Wow.

[00:13:16] Lori English: Yeah.

[00:13:17] Bob: Terrified, she drives home with this little box of gold and awaits further instructions. She doesn't have to wait long. Three men will come pick up the gold tomorrow, she's told. Her instructions are to call Steven right before they arrive at 2:30 and secretly keep him on speaker phone the whole time.

[00:13:36] Lori English: They're not going to know anything about this. They're just there to pick it up. So you don't need to ask them any questions. You can be polite, but don't really talk to them."

[00:13:43] Bob: So they drive up to your house?

[00:13:45] Lori English: They drive up to the house, three men, they come in my house. They open the box on the floor of my living room and count. They were polite. They didn't say hardly anything. They left with my money. And I remember thinking, they're walking out of my house with half of my life savings. But it's okay because I've got Steven on the phone with me. I didn't need to ask them for ID, 'cause I've got Steven on the phone with me. He's got me.

[00:14:09] Bob: Right, right. And also, I mean you expected them. This was all part of a plan that was coming you know and it was all happening at exactly the right appointed time and everything, right?

[00:14:17] Lori English: Hmm-hm. Yep.

[00:14:19] Bob: Wow. Say so one of your feelings was wow, they're walking out with half my life savings, but were you relieved that it was over?

[00:14:25] Lori English: Not really. I really didn't have a sense of anything like that because I felt like it was, I was still in the middle of it. I was glad to have the gold out of my house.

[00:14:36] Bob: Hmm, I'm sure.

[00:14:38] Bob: It's now been a couple of months since that first phone call. And this major transaction is now finished, but Lori's unease is only growing.

[00:14:47] Bob: And you, you haven't told a soul any of this.

[00:14:49] Lori English: Not a single soul.

[00:14:51] Bob: Ah, that seems to be isolating.

[00:14:52] Lori English: It was very isolating, and I would, I would notice things like cars that would slow down in front of my house, or you know things that I wouldn't have thought twice about.

[00:15:03] Bob: After handing over the gold, she's hoping for good news from Steven, maybe that was enough to get this all over with. But...

[00:15:11] Lori English: So once we did that, we had kind of a lull in the action. And we talked every day still, and he said, you know, "I'm still, I'm working on your, I'm working on your case." He would call and ask me a question now and then or you know, about finances or what have you and, and then he says, "Lori," he says, "We've got to get that other, the, the rest of your money, whatever we can get, we need to secure, 'cause I'm having a really tough time."

[00:15:39] Bob: He's having a really rough time clearing her name. So she's told she'll have to empty the rest of her Roth IRA.

[00:15:48] Lori English: So it was the same process, the same thing happened. So I went and got the second batch of gold. And, and then the same day two guys came to pick it up.

[00:16:01] Bob: But two different guys.

[00:16:03] Lori English: Uh-huh, yes. Two different guys. Yep.

[00:16:06] Bob: And then when they leave, you know, now they have all the money I've ever saved.

[00:16:10] Lori English: Yeah, they have everything. And I had about two grand to my name.

[00:16:14] Bob: Days go by. Two weeks go by. And there's no news. But then the call she's been waiting for comes.

[00:16:22] Lori English: I think it was a Tuesday morning. It's like 9 o'clock in the morning, and I'm still asleep. And he says, "We did it. We got you cleared. You're good. All you have to do is go to your Pataskala police station. They've got your paperwork; they'll take care of everything. You can now tell the story. Move now." So, well okay, yeah, whoo-hoo. So I grabbed my paperwork and I go to the police station and...

[00:16:45] Bob: So you go up to the front desk, the dispatcher, right?

[00:16:47] Lori English: Yeah, I go to the front desk, and it wasn't the dispatcher, just a receptionist type girl.

[00:16:52] Bob: Okay.

[00:16:52] Lori English: And I told her who I was and that they were expecting me, and I was to speak to Officer So and So. And she said, "Well he's not, he's on vacation this week."

[00:17:01] Bob: Oh...

[00:17:02] Lori English: Yeah, exactly. And so she, she was so sweet. She tried; she called people; they didn't know anything about this. So I called Steven, and I said, "What's going on? They don't know anything." He said, "Okay," he said, "I'm sorry." Says, "You need to go to the Licking County Auditor's Office and ask for so and so." And I'm thinking, the Auditor's Office? Why in the heck would I go to the Auditor's Office? Well, whatever, I'll go.

[00:17:26] Bob: So she drives a half hour to Newark, Ohio, and talks to someone at the front desk there.

[00:17:32] Lori English: So she says to me, "I don't have any clue what you're talking about." She says, "All we do here is payroll for the county." And she said, "Let's go talk to the Deputy Director, or the Deputy Auditor." So we did, and so I know at this point I'd been given the green light to tell the story, so I sit down in his office, and she's there with us. She was so kind, they both were, and started to tell the story. And as I'm telling it out loud for the first time in 2½ months, the red flags start flying. And I realized something was very, very wrong. And the woman said, "I think I need to call the Sheriff's Department." And I said, and so I'm still brainwashed. I said, "No, no, no. Please don't do that, don't do that. I'll, I'll find out what's going on." And I left.

[00:18:19] Bob: Lori feels like something is terribly wrong, but she's still, part of her is still hoping there is some mistake and she doesn't want anyone to call the police. Instead, she calls Steven.

[00:18:33] Lori English: And I said, by this time I was mad and using a lot of four--, four-letter words. And I said, "What is going on?" And he said, "I'm in a meeting, the very last meeting for you. I'll call you back in a minute. Go on..." I said, "I'm going home." He said, "That's fine." So I leave and about 5 minutes later I'm driving home, my phone rings, and it's a strange phone number, and there's a strange male voice that says, "You've been scammed." So I scream, I hang up the phone, and I call 911.

[00:19:04] Bob: Lori isn't sure who that last caller was, but she suspects it was Steven using his real voice finally. That he had been putting on a fake accent for the past 2½ months. And when she calls 911, she can hardly speak. The 911 operator helps.

[00:19:22] Lori English: And she said, "There'll be a deputy waiting for you at your house." She said, "You need to calm down," because I'm crying hysterically and screaming, and she got me calmed down to where I could drive safely, and there was a deputy here when I got home.

[00:19:36] Bob: I can't imagine what the moment was like for you.

[00:19:39] Lori English: I still puts me in knots.

[00:19:42] Bob: When she gets home, as promised, there is a detective waiting there for her.

[00:19:47] Lori English: That poor guy, he was so wonderful. He was so patient with me because I was hysterical. I had called my ex-husband, and he came running, and I thank God for that, because he was my voice of reason and helped me get through that statement and interview with the deputy. The deputy, I told him everything, and he said that Licking County has a Victims Advocate Program and they have a victim's advocate who helps people like me. He said, "I'm going to call this guy and see if he can come over." So the victim's advocate came, and he said, "I'm going to be the guy that's going to help you day-to-day get through this."

[00:20:24] Bob: The victim's advocate brings out a US Secret Service agent the next say.

[00:20:29] Lori English: Deputy Woodyard and the Secret Service agent come and show up at my door, and I said, "Guys, I need ID." (giggles) And so...

[00:20:38] Bob: Good for you.

[00:20:38] Lori English: So then, yeah, and so they, they of course obliged. But they came in and the, the Secret Service agent was, was really helpful. He said, "We're pretty sure this is Chinese organized crime." And that scared me even more.

[00:20:53] Bob: Yeah.

[00:20:53] Lori English: And he said, he said, "You are, you're a victim here." He said, "There's no need to be embarrassed or ashamed," which I was, and I still am. And he said that they've gotten, the same group has gotten a pharmacist for over 800,000, they got a professor for 1.2 million, and they got a narcotics agent.

[00:21:17] Bob: Oh my God.

[00:21:18] Lori English: So they are good. They are very, very good. And he, so that helped if, you know, through the circumstances. But...

[00:21:26] Bob: I, I'm sure, yeah. Um, but at the same time, what message did they give to you that day about your money?

[00:21:33] Lori English: He said that the chances are I'd never see it.

[00:21:35] Bob: Had that reality hit you?

[00:21:36] Lori English: Yeah, I knew I'd never see it.

[00:21:37] Bob: But you are now sitting, looking at, you have a couple of thousand dollars to your name.

[00:21:41] Lori English: Right. Yep.

[00:21:43] Bob: God.

[00:21:43] Lori English: So thank God for Licking County and all the programs that they have. I've been able to get a lot of assistance.

[00:21:48] Bob: At this moment, Lori has only a couple of thousand dollars left to her name. It's terrifying. Okay, so if you've heard a lot of Perfect Scam episodes, you know many of them end right there. The money is stolen, and the banks and law enforcement can't get it back. Well, today, dear listener, we have quite a surprise ending for you.

[00:22:11] Lori English: And then about a week later, Deputy Woodyard calls, and he says, "You're not going to believe this, but we got two guys, and we got half your gold."

[00:22:19] Bob: What comes out of your mouth?

[00:22:21] Lori English: Oh my God! How much? (laughs)

[00:22:25] Bob: (laughs)

[00:22:25] Lori English: He said, "It's the second batch that they picked up, that the two guys picked up." He said, "They were arrested, or they were stopped in Oklahoma by an alert deputy who thought that things were looking a little fishy. They had a, a suspicious vehicle APB out on, on their vehicle anyway. And he had reason to search, and he looked in the back and there was your box of gold with your receipt in it."

[00:22:49] Bob: This was like two weeks after the fact?

[00:22:51] Lori English: yes. Yes.

[00:22:53] Bob: They're like driving around with your gold?

[00:22:55] Lori English: They were driving around, apparently, they, they went to the East Coast and then headed west, and so it seemed very odd that a plain white van with two men was driving through Oklahoma in a rented vehicle.

[00:23:09] Bob: Yeah, this is super weird.

[00:23:10] Lori English: They also found drugs in the vehicle.

[00:23:12] Bob: Yeah. I mean that's just, that's a crazy story.

[00:23:15] Lori English: Yes, it is. And it's like divine intervention or something, I don't know.

[00:23:21] Bob: So how much was, how much did you, how much was half the gold?

[00:23:25] Lori English: That, that batch was 240, 240,000.

[00:23:31] Bob: So this is life changing information.

[00:23:33] Lori English: Yes. It put me back on my feet to some extent.

[00:23:37] Bob: Life changing information. She's had almost everything stolen from her and then $240,000 reappears, not quite right away, but almost.

[00:23:51] Bob: Um, it's not a matter of you just driving down to the station and getting your gold though, right?

[00:23:55] Lori English: Right. So...

[00:23:57] Bob: So how did that work?

[00:23:58] Lori English: But, but they were, they were really working hard to get it back to me quickly. They had to process it through Oklahoma. The Oklahoma people, uh law enforcement had to work with Licking County law enforcement to coordinate an exchange of the gold. They had to work out how they were going to get it here. Deputy Woodyard said, he said, "I may have to fly out there and drive it home." They could ship it, whatever. Um, but it, as it turns out they, they did end up shipping it home about it must have been about two weeks later after it was all processed. And then once they got it here, the judge who was on the case was very, very compassionate and he was okay with just having pictures of each individual bar as evidence, as opposed to the real gold, to go to trial. So I got the real gold back. I went back to the company I bought it from, and they bought it back from me.

[00:25:00] Bob: And I'm going to guess that you lost a little bit through fees and whatnot, right?

[00:25:04] Lori English: I did not. They did not charge me any fees.

[00:25:08] Bob: I'm glad to hear that.

[00:25:08] Lori English: I, I lost, I lost about $100 just because the valued had dropped just a hair.

[00:25:13] Bob: And by the way, the man in the ballcap that she thought might have been conducting surveillance on her, well, he was just a regular customer of the store.

[00:25:24] Bob: Okay, so now, so now you, I know, I'm assuming you then go back to your financial advisor.

[00:25:28] Lori English: Yes, yes. And he said to me, "Lori," he said, "I knew something was going on, and I knew it was going to be bad."

[00:25:33] Bob: Hmm.

[00:25:35] Lori English: But he...

[00:25:36] Bob: That must have been a very hard conversation.

[00:25:37] Lori English: It was. I, like I said, we've known each other for 20 years. And there was a lot of, and he was so cool about it and so, I mean he was giving me all kinds of ideas, and he, he helped me kind of nurture the idea of telling the story once everything was done. And I knew the second day after I got that dreaded phone call, that I had to tell the story.

[00:26:01] Bob: With Lori's help, the two men who were driving around with her second batch of gold are prosecuted, eventually plead guilty, and are sentenced.

[00:26:11] Lori English: Yeah. Two years in prison. Two years monitored probation and restitution. And these two guys have nothing. They're just mules. They're just mules. They have nothing.

[00:26:28] Bob: So I can hear it in your voice, this, this resolution didn't, isn't really satisfying to you.

[00:26:33] Lori English: It’s not a resolution to me because they didn't do it. They're not the ones who did it. They're just mules. They were just doing what they were told. My brother asked me that same question. He said, "So do you feel a sense of closure?" I said, "Absolutely not." This is Chinese organized crime. This has multiple, multiple layers and my detective and Secret Service and FBI as well said the same thing.

[00:26:57] Bob: So somewhere out there is somebody doing this very same thing to someone else still, right?

[00:27:01] Lori English: I'm aware of four other people in four other states, and I know there's more that they're not telling me.

[00:27:07] Bob: Yeah, of course, wow.

[00:27:08] Lori English: And those are the people I want to reach.

[00:27:11] Bob: So that's why Lori agreed to speak with us.

[00:27:15] Lori English: I would love to be able to start some kind of a support group or, I mean just, just anything, 'cause I had a couple of people say to me, "Well, you know, when you get phone calls like that, you need to, you know, hang up and verify and dah-dah-dah." Well, with all due respect, I don't need to hear that, because you're not in my shoes, and you didn't experience what I experienced and the fear factor that was immediately in place on that first conversation.

[00:27:43] Bob: It is some terrible human impulse to say exactly the wrong thing at exactly the wrong time to someone like you.

[00:27:50] Lori English: Right.

[00:27:51] Bob: You know, it's, yeah. I mean God, um, 'cause somewhere, somewhere un--, underneath that it's communicated, yeah, you're kind of stupid, right?

[00:28:00] Lori English: Right, exactly. You're an idiot, exactly.

[00:28:01] Bob: Yeah.

[00:28:02] Lori English: But see the thing is, what people don't understand is, Bob, that these guys didn't, didn't do what we've all been trained and made aware of how to respond to something like this. They never asked me for personal information. And that's how they train that you hear on the news all the time, never give out any personal information. Nothing of any kind. Well, I didn't. 'Cause they never asked me. They went for the jugular from the get-go.

[00:28:29] Bob: And I couldn't agree with you more; until you've had this experience, you, you don't actually know what it's like. How are you doing today?

[00:28:37] Lori English: I'm doing pretty well. I'm, like I said, I'm getting assistance and I'm looking for a job which is really, really difficult in a lot of ways; emotionally and psychologically and trying to, you know, keep my head in the game and trying to turn this into a, to something that's going to help somebody. But I'm doing okay. Just trying to find a job.

[00:29:03] Bob: But you still look over your shoulder sometimes you said, right?

[00:29:06] Lori English: Yeah, I do. And it's, the other day as a matter of fact I had somebody stopping at the end of my driveway, and I couldn't figure out, you know I automatically locked the doors. Because I'm the type of person, I love to have my windows and doors open. And I just kept my eyes, I was just about ready to call 911 when they pulled away. I think they were just looking, talking on the phone or something. But that kind of thing really unnerves me. I'm now on the, the deputy, the sheriff's department regular route, so they patrol by here often. I see them frequently different times of the day and night.

[00:29:40] Bob: Wow, that's great.

[00:29:41] Lori English: Yeah, it is. It really makes me feel better. And they honk and wave which is really cool.

[00:29:44] Bob: (laughs)

[00:29:46] Lori English: Yeah.

[00:29:47] Bob: You're on a first name basis with them all.

[00:29:49] Lori English: I, I probably, I feel like I am. I, I mean I even have an up close and personal relationship with the canine unit (laughs) and Aries, the dog.

[00:29:58] Bob: Oh my God.

[00:29:59] Lori English: Yeah, they've been great.

[00:30:02] Bob: What is it that you want people to really know and to learn from, I mean you were clearly anxious to talk to us which I'm really, really grateful for, but what is it you want people to hear?

[00:30:11] Lori English: I just want people to know that there are no limits to what people will do. And verify, verify, verify no matter what they throw at you, no matter what. If it's a phone call, you can always hang up and call the cops. If it's just, I just can't stress enough that if something sounds, even if it doesn't sound suspicious, but if it sounds scary, if it sounds wrong, verify it, check it out. Hang up, call the cops. I wish I had done that. I wish I'd never answered the phone.

[00:30:41] Bob: And we really have to stress the part of this story that is most alarming to me. Having money stolen is one thing, but...

[00:30:50] Lori English: The fact that they came in my home -- the Secret Service agent said that that's the first time he had ever heard of them actually coming into a residence. That scared me to death when he said that.

[00:31:03] Bob: It's scared Lori to death. And this kind of crime in which criminals come into victims homes is scary enough and becoming common enough that the Social Security Administration recently issued a warning titled simply, "Don't Hand Cash Off to Agents." That warning reads in part, "The Social Security Administration Office of the Inspector General is receiving alarming reports that criminals are impersonating SSA OIG agent and are requesting that their targets meet them in person to hand off cash. SSA OIG agents will never pick up money at your door or in any type of exchange. This is a scam. Never exchange money or funds of any kind with any individual stating they are an SSA OIG agent. This new scam trend introduces an element of physical danger to scams that never existed before." Here to talk more that very, serious sounding warning is AJ Monaco who is Special Agent in Charge with the Major Case Unit at the Social Security Administration's Office of the Inspector General. He says he's seen victims of the same scam Lori suffered who've had as much as $2.7 million stolen from them.

[00:32:22] AJ Monaco: It, it's really soul crushing to see that. What you come to realize uh is just how absolutely devastating this is for somebody, and particularly somebody who's, who's saved their entire lives. They've got, they may have a pension, they may have a 401K and they've given all that up and they have virtually no ability, no means to make that up again. It, it's just, it's absolutely horrifying to see that happen to a human being. So if you have any sort of compassion or think of the relatives in your lives, just so that, that's always my first reaction is, is to, to have empathy, to have compassion for those that, that have gone through this.

[00:32:58] Bob: AJ was anxious to talk with us about that "don't hand off cash to agents" warning.

[00:33:05] Bob: Let me just get it as clear from you as I can. Will someone from Social Security show up at your house and ask for cash?

[00:33:10] AJ Monaco: Absolutely not. And I think that's, really the, the more, probably the more important point is that law enforcement of any sort, one, they're not going to come to your house and, and they're going to, if they threaten arrest or if they threaten a search warrant or, or any sort of threat of enforcement action, it's just not going to happen. And it's going to, it, typical of the US government, any sort of interaction you're going to have is going to take place over a time, there's going to be lots of back and forth, typically by letter, maybe by email, but typically by letter. Maybe by you signing into your MySSA Account corresponding or sending an email that you initiated, but it's pretty rare that the Social Security Administration is going to need to contact you for anything. It's, it's more commonplace that you would find something wrong before the SSA does. So that's, that's the one part of it and, and just absolutely no agent, no Social Security Office of Inspector General Agent, or even, you know a member from SSA is going to come to your house and demand money.

[00:34:06] Bob: But having a situation where someone does come to your house could be dangerous, right?

[00:34:09] AJ Monaco: Absolutely dangerous, and that's why we put the alert out back in March is because were starting to see this trend. We saw it in some of our complaints, I actually talked to some, some victims and, and really what my first reaction was, is if you find yourself in that situation, my, my recommendation is always; please call 911. Please call and get in touch with your local police, because nobody should be coming to your house and that, that just elevates the, the, the danger, the threat to you physically. There's a huge potential for some sort of physical altercation.

[00:34:37] Bob: And there has been one prominent case of a mule showing up at a scam target's home and the incident turning deadly.

[00:34:46] AJ Monaco: Something went very wrong and a, and a victim who understood that he was being scammed, actually shot one of these couriers and the courier was just a Lyft driver who was, who was doing a job for, you know, for somebody for a scammer, and didn't really even know, but actually shot and killed somebody. So the potential for bad things to happen when mules are meeting in person with victims, I think, just exponentially rises.

[00:35:08] Bob: What's really going on here? Why are criminals showing up at victims' homes?

[00:35:14] AJ Monaco: We think the reason they're doing that is because, you know, what they're trying to get outside of necessarily the, the view of, of cameras and so why, you know, how much better than to come into somebody's house where they probably don't have a camera inside. And to be more convincing in person, because a, a lot of times people will be suspicious that uh, that they're, they're not talking to an actual agent till the person shows up and maybe they have fake credentials or whatever it is that, that they're much more convincing in person.

[00:35:38] Bob: I was wondering if maybe at least one reason for that might be that the gift card people and the cryptocurrency people are getting a little bit better and making it a little bit harder to transfer money that way, or am I being too optimistic?

[00:35:50] AJ Monaco: No, I think that's right. One of the things that we're seeing and this is, this is, you know, credit to the, the American regulatory, you know, the financial institutions and the regulatory system is crypto leaves behind a, a very strong trail. And it may lead overseas, but nonetheless it leaves behind a trail and, and we can follow that trail in law enforcement and banking. So the, you know, the anti-money laundering, the financial crime regulatory scheme you know is, is catching up with the technology, so I think that's why you're seeing this kind of what's old is what's new. This in person con is, is hard to track. If there's no camera, there's no trace. If somebody goes and, and buys gold, or buys, I guess a cashier's check, but, but gold or gift card, gift cards, and then hands them over in person, and then the uh, the mule takes off never to be seen again, it's really, really hard to, for us to find them.

[00:36:34] Bob: They sort of get off the grid that way, right?

[00:36:36] AJ Monaco: They do, that's right, that's right.

[00:36:37] Bob: Well one of the things that's striking about Lori's story is that they asked her to buy gold and she handed the gold over to a criminal. How unusual is that?

[00:36:45] AJ Monaco: It's becoming more usual and I think gold is very safe for them. I mean for the same reason that we might buy gold, it's a very safe investment, hard to trace. Um, in, in many different forms you can, I guess you can turn it into other different forms. It's, it's easily transportable. You can hide it in your luggage, easy to get out of the country, and it's worth the same thing in this country as it, you know, it is wherever else you, you know you bring it overseas.

[00:37:07] Bob: Lori was the victim of what's known more generally as a government impersonation scam. That's just what it sounds like. Criminals pretend to be a government official, say someone from the IRS, and intimidate victims into sending money. Lately the Social Security Administration has been invoked in these kind of scams. That change began before the pandemic but peaked in 2021 when the SSA got a stunning 700,000 complaints about it. There are fewer now, but still, big money is involved.

[00:37:40] AJ Monaco: Just to give you some context, last year at least the numbers known to the FTC were over $600 million in loss, just for, for 2023. So you know I think what the academics have shown us is that, you know, 10% report, maybe a little more, 15%, so you can really move the decimal place from $660 million is I think is what it was, really move the decimal place over one spot. That's going to be, you know, in the billions. Six, six billion, 10 billion, or somewhere in the billions just for government impostor scams.

[00:38:09] Bob: I mean that's like a Fortune 500 company.

[00:38:10] AJ Monaco: It's a Fortune 500 company.

[00:38:13] Bob: Why are government impersonation scams so persuasive? Well one reason is that people have heard of organizations like the IRS or the SSA, and maybe they are already a little bit intimidated when they think they're hearing from them. But technology helps too.

[00:38:30] AJ Monaco: Another reason is the proliferation, particularly in the last 6 to 8 years of technology that allows just the ease at which criminals can spoof a phone number, which means that they can purport to be from the Social Security Administration or from some other entity so it appears on your phone that somebody's, it legitimizes the phone call, at least in the minds of the, the potential victim. So that's, using the VoiceOver IP technology which allows not only just the spoofing of phone calls very easily, but also allows just a mass number, kind of on an, on an industrial scale to, to reach more and more people, millions and millions of people which would have taken, would have been virtually impossible when it was an analog phone system. So technology is certainly um, certainly part of that as well.

[00:39:14] Bob: Lori certainly mentioned it to me, and so many victims do, when the phone says, "Social Security Administration," I mean that's very persuasive.

[00:39:20] AJ Monaco: It is. It is, and you want to believe that. You want to believe your government you know is, is doing the right thing, and that they're calling you, and like, oh, there's a problem here. That's the problem is they take advantage of that. They're, they're master manipulators of, of that kind of good-hearted American, you know, wanting to believe the fact that we're not all skeptical and cynical people. Um, we want to be happy people and believe that our government is doing the right thing.

[00:39:42] Bob: The latest crime trend AJ sees is something he calls a hybrid scam. It might start out with a reference to a well-known commercial company, but quickly moves to a government impersonation scam. Criminals text to say there's a problem with your Amazon or your Walmart account...

[00:39:59] AJ Monaco: Which many people have, so it seems plausible, and you answer the phone or you answer the text message or a bank or something and, and that person, that scammer reports that you have some sort of problem with your identity that needs to be fixed by the Social Security Administration. So it's really a hybrid scam. It, it turns out, you know, whether it's a tech problem or whatever it is, it's, "Ma'am, I'm going to transfer you over to this agent over here who's going to take care of your problem." And now they've introduced you into the Social Security scam through the backdoor, if you will. And they're, and they seem to be very successful and very believable that way.

[00:40:30] Bob: Government officials like AJ are trying to nab as many criminals as they can. But...

[00:40:36] AJ Monaco: As one prosecutor said to me at some point, in 2021, she said, "We're not going to prosecute our way out of this. So, so what, what other thing can we do?" And that's why we're, we're very happy to come on and talk to you to, to do various forms of you know print and all sorts of media, television. We put things out, our communications folks, they are really good about um, posting things. We, we put out scam alerts. We're doing, for a small agency I think we, you know we do our share of trying to get the word out about these scams and to work with the, the Federal Trade Commission and other law enforcement partners and other communications people to get the word out because the, the only way we're going to disable this, this success of these, these fraudsters is really going to get the, to get the word out and make this soak, big understanding of what's happening so commonplace that everybody gets it. And I like to say like if ev--, if everybody remembers the Nigerian scam, the email which, you know, now seems implausible, but, but we want to make it that common where somebody looks at something and goes, that's a scam. That's the best way to prevent this and stop it.

[00:41:34] Bob: Yeah, I mean that took us maybe 20 years, right?

[00:41:36] AJ Monaco: Yeah, that's, unfortunately that's the truth.

[00:41:39] Bob: So for now, AJ has a quick shorthand way to spot potential scams and to protect yourself from them. He calls this list the Four Ps.

[00:41:49] AJ Monaco: Every scam generally follows this 4-P you know method or 4-P way of, of thinking. And so the first one is somebody, and I like to, we use pretend or somebody purports to be from a government agency or purports to be from Amazon, or purports to be from, you know, the Baltimore Gas & Electric Company which is my, you know, local utility. Purports to be from somewhere, right? Somebody in, in, in authority that contacts you. And then the second P is that they, they give you some sort of problem. There's a problem. And then the, the third P, and so they've got to put pressure on you before you realize that this is a scam. So they've got to get you into this mindset that you've got to do something and there's a time limit. So they, they apply this pressure, and they're very good at it. So the fourth P is pay, and it generally is going to mean that the scammer isn't successful until he's able to get you to, to get some sort of money, put some sort of, sort of money out into the, into his hands.

[00:42:42] Bob: The Four Ps, Pretend, Problem, Pressure, Pay, that's handy, but here's an even quicker shorthand to remember.

[00:42:50] AJ Monaco: If you find yourself in a call for some reason, or you find yourself engaged just recognize when somebody's pressuring you to give money or to give up your personal information, you know, just, just to kind of emblazon that in your mind that boom, uh, just, just get me out of this uh, I've got to hang up, I've got to, I've got to get myself out of this.

[00:43:09] Bob: I've got to get myself out of this. Just hang up. Just stop texting or email. And share stories like the one you've heard today about dangerous impersonatings on The Perfect Scam.

[00:43:21] AJ Monaco: And spread the word and you know, listen to this podcast, listen to the great articles on the Fraud Watch Network. There's just some really good information out there that can help keep the most vulnerable population, to keep them safe. I think we, it's really a big community effort, a national effort, and we just need to keep bringing awareness to this issue because it really is just that serious.

[00:43:39] Bob: It really is that serious. And you can stay informed on the latest scams with a free bi-weekly newsletter by email and text. Go to aarp.org/watchdogalerts to sign up.

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[00:43:57] Bob: For The Perfect Scam, I'm Bob Sullivan

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[00:44:03] Bob: If you have been targeted by a scam or fraud, you are not alone. Call the AARP Fraud Watch Network Helpline at 877-908-3360. Their trained fraud specialists can provide you with free support and guidance on what to do next. Our email address at The Perfect Scam is: theperfectscampodcast@aarp.org, and we want to hear from you. If you've been the victim of a scam or you know someone who has, and you'd like us to tell their story, write to us. That address again is: theperfectscampodcast@aarp.org. Thank you to our team of scambusters; Associate Producer, Annalea Embree; Researcher, Becky Dodson; Executive Producer, Julie Getz; and our Audio Engineer and Sound Designer, Julio Gonzalez. Be sure to find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. For AARP's The Perfect Scam, I'm Bob Sullivan.

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