You May Not Be a Winner: Sweepstakes Scam Empties Woman’s Savings

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[00:00:01] Bob: This week on The Perfect Scam.

[00:00:04] Kathy Tipp: Oh my God. You're kidding me? I won this grand prize of $3.5 million, a new Mercedes, and $7000 for life.

[00:00:13] Bob: So he sends you this document and you open--, did you have to sign anything?

[00:00:17] Kathy Tipp: Oh yeah, I had to sign a uh, a non-disclosure agreement.

[00:00:22] Bob: Oh, what was that for?

[00:00:23] Kathy Tipp: So I couldn't talk. You know how it was for me to keep this thing a secret for months? I couldn't tell anyone. I didn't tell my daughter.

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[00:00:38] Bob: Welcome back to The Perfect Scam. I'm your host, Bob Sullivan. Everybody dreams of winning a big prize; a stuffed bear at a carnival, a 50/50 drawing, a state lottery, but there is one sweepstakes contest that has captured America's attention since the 1960s, Publishers Clearing House. You know they show up at winner's homes with a big check and make a TV commercial out of it, the stuff dreams are made out of. Well, all that name recognition and all those dreams create an opportunity for criminals. Sweepstakes scams are common enough, but when criminals drop the name of Publishers Clearing House, it brings their story an air of credibility in the same way, criminals working on the tech support scam say they're from Microsoft or Apple. The Federal Trade Commission wrote a blog post a few months ago to say they'd seen an increase in scams using the Publishers Clearing House name. The impact can be devastating on victims, victims like Kathy Tipp who lives outside Detroit, Michigan, in a suburb named Troy and spends most of her time caring for her husband who's struggling with cognitive decline.

[00:01:49] Bob: When did that start?

[00:01:50] Kathy Tipp: That started about right after he had his bilateral knee replacements, both of them at the same time. So it started in about 2017.

[00:01:59] Bob: That's a long time to be taking care of your husband.

[00:02:01] Kathy Tipp: Yeah. And he, he goes to a geriatric doctor who we love, and he's on many meds. He also has a heart doctor. He's on a lot of meds.

[00:02:12] Bob: It's a pretty typical day, Kathy caring for her husband as she has pretty much full-time since retirement when she gets a phone call that she thinks is going to change her life, her family's life in a dramatic way. On the other end of the line is a woman who says she's Susan Miller, and she has some very, very good news. Kathy has won the Publishers Clearing House Sweepstakes.

[00:02:36] Bob: So, so she introduces herself as from Publishers Clearing House. Had you heard of Publishers Clearing House?

[00:02:41] Kathy Tipp: Oh, of course I have. Who hasn't. Yeah.

[00:02:43] Bob: So what was your first thought?

[00:02:45] Kathy Tipp: Was like, oh my God. You're kidding me? I won this grand prize of $3.5 million, a new Mercedes, and $7000 for life.

[00:02:54] Bob: I mean that, I'm sure part of you was like this, me? How could this happen, right?

[00:02:58] Kathy Tipp: Yeah. How could this happen?

[00:03:00] Bob: Right away Kathy starts thinking about how money like that could really help, well not herself, but people she loves.

[00:03:09] Kathy Tipp: So I was thinking oh my God, I'm going to be able to help a lot of people. Oh, I was going to help my daughter and my grandkids, you know, go to college. And Tunnels to Towers, and St. Jude. I was going to be able to help a lot of people. Maybe even some of my friends who weren't as able to be retired.

[00:03:33] Bob: The woman on the phone tells Kathy she'll get the money and the car very soon, but there is something Kathy has to do right away. She has to buy a gift card.

[00:03:43] Kathy Tipp: That's right. And then she says, "Don't hang up the phone."

[00:03:46] Bob: Oh, okay.

[00:03:47] Kathy Tipp: "Go get it, go get it in, go get it, come back to the car, and give me the," whatever, "the registration numbers on the back of the gift card."

[00:03:55] Bob: Where did you get the gift card?

[00:03:56] Kathy Tipp: Oh, Walmart.

[00:03:56] Bob: You went to Walmart. And how much was it for?

[00:03:59] Kathy Tipp: $500.

[00:03:59] Bob: $500. Okay. And then you're on the phone with her. You get back to the car. You read her the numbers.

[00:04:05] Kathy Tipp: Right.

[00:04:07] Bob: With that finished, the woman tells Kathy she's now ready to receive the sweepstakes winnings, and she's going to be put in touch with someone who will help her with the details of the complicated transaction.

[00:04:18] Kathy Tipp: Oh yeah, Brandon Lewis, I'll never forget that name.

[00:04:21] Bob: And he said he was from the Federal Trade Commission, right?

[00:04:23] Kathy Tipp: Correct, he was a Federal Trade Commission attorney. And he was assigned to make sure I was treated fairly by Publishers Clearing House.

[00:04:31] Bob: What does that mean, treated fairly? What did he say he had to do? I mean what was his roll?

[00:04:35] Kathy Tipp: Exactly. Yes. He had to manage the entire transaction. Everything I had to pay to get the prize, which were taxes, well primarily taxes.

[00:04:45] Bob: So the first Brandon Lewis does is tell Kathy she's going to have to fill out a series of forms.

[00:04:52] Kathy Tipp: Well he sent me a document which looked like a very official document from Publishers Clearing House with my name on it saying that I won this prize.

[00:05:04] Bob: He email you, I guess.

[00:05:06] Kathy Tipp: Yes, he did.

[00:05:07] Bob: And did he ask you...

[00:05:08] Kathy Tipp: He started to email me from the Federal Trade Commission site and then it changed to his personal site.

[00:05:17] Bob: Did he, did he explain why?

[00:05:19] Kathy Tipp: Not really. Uh-uh.

[00:05:21] Bob: So he sends you this document and you open--, did you have to sign anything?

[00:05:25] Kathy Tipp: Oh, are you kidding me? Oh yeah, I had to sign a uh, a non-disclosure agreement.

[00:05:30] Bob: Oh, what was that for?

[00:05:31] Kathy Tipp: So I couldn't talk.

[00:05:33] Bob: Hmm.

[00:05:33] Kathy Tipp: And then he had me sign other agreements.

[00:05:36] Bob: In order to process the paperwork, there's a small fee, Brandon says. $400. But this time Kathy will have to pay via bitcoin.

[00:05:47] Bob: Had you ever used a bitcoin ATM before?

[00:05:49] Kathy Tipp: Never, it scared the crap out of me.

[00:05:51] Bob: Well what was it like?

[00:05:52] Kathy Tipp: Scared the crap out of me and I'm in a little perdy store in Troy. I don't know how to do it. He sent me a link for the, his bitcoin thing. And I asked for help from the store people, they said, "We don't know anything about it." And I felt like a criminal. I felt terrible.

[00:06:08] Bob: So you're feeding $50 into this thing like it's some crazy vending machine and people are watching you right?

[00:06:13] Kathy Tipp: Yes. Yes.

[00:06:14] Bob: Oh, it sounds horrible.

[00:06:15] Kathy Tipp: Yes. It was terrible. And I couldn't, I hated every moment of it.

[00:06:20] Bob: But by the time the night is over, Kathy's completed the bitcoin payment and completed all the paperwork including that nondisclosure agreement which says she's not allowed to speak to anyone else.

[00:06:33] Bob: So you go to bed that night, how are you feeling?

[00:06:36] Kathy Tipp: How was I feeling then?

[00:06:37] Bob: Yeah, that first night, after all this happens? How are you feeling?

[00:06:39] Kathy Tipp: They said, "You're going to get every penny back that you spend. PCH is going to reimburse you for every dollar you spent." Well...

[00:06:49] Bob: I mean were you, were you excited?

[00:06:50] Kathy Tipp: Sure I was excited.

[00:06:52] Bob: A few days pass and then Brandon gets in touch with Kathy again and tells her that she has to send in a payment to cover part of the taxes she owes. He tells her to withdraw $8,500 from her checking account and send it in via check to someone else. Kathy does that. Then he asks for another payment of $35,000. Remember, he's told her that she's won $3.5 million so that's small by comparison, but Kathy doesn't have cash like that on hand. She has to dip into her retirement funds, and that leads to a difficult conversation with the person who manages her account.

[00:07:33] Kathy Tipp: I had; my planner had set up these annuities for me.

[00:07:36] Bob: Ah.

[00:07:37] Kathy Tipp: From which I received some monthly stipends which was going to last me the rest of my life.

[00:07:44] Bob: And they're not a lot, right, but it's like $500, $1000 here or there, right?

[00:07:48] Kathy Tipp: No, I got about $3000 a month.

[00:07:51] Bob: Okay, great.

[00:07:52] Kathy Tipp: Yeah. So that, with Social Security, that was a pretty decent income.

[00:07:57] Bob: Uh-hmm, so, so you have to go in to that advisor who set those annuities up for you, right, and say, I, I want to withdraw my money. How long had you known him?

[00:08:05] Kathy Tipp: Oh my advisor? At least 25 years.

[00:08:06] Bob: Oh wow, okay. And, and he confronts you and...

[00:08:09] Kathy Tipp: And he's, he's my sister's advisor too.

[00:08:12] Bob: So he knows the whole family. So he, he says,

[00:08:13] Kathy Tipp: Yeah, and friend.

[00:08:15] Bob: He says, "I don't like this, something sounds wrong."

[00:08:18] Kathy Tipp: That's right.

[00:08:19] Bob: And what, what do you say?

[00:08:20] Kathy Tipp: Oh I am investing in a start-up company which is what they told me to say.

[00:08:24] Bob: So she cashes out her annuities and then Brandon tells her what to do with the money. She starts mailing more checks to addresses he supplies.

[00:08:34] Kathy Tipp: On 10/13 there were two $50,000 checks.

[00:08:37] Bob: Ooh boy, wow.

[00:08:38] Kathy Tipp: And then, I'm sorry, there was also a $61,000 on the same day, the 13th. November 10th, here's a 50,000. November 10th, here's a 49,000. Oh, January 8th, 40,000.

[00:08:53] Bob: As the weeks go by and the checks keep going out, Kathy still feels like she's bound by that nondisclosure agreement.

[00:09:00] Kathy Tipp: You know how it was for me to keep this fricking thing a secret for months? I couldn't tell anyone. I didn't tell my daughter.

[00:09:08] Bob: Keeping something a secret like that is terrible.

 [00:09:11] Kathy Tipp: I thought I was going to make your life better. I was going to pay off your mortgage. I was going to help your life.

[00:09:17] Bob: Well, instead of improving her life and the lives of all those around her, by the time the new year rolls around, Kathy has sent Brandon just about every penny she has.

[00:09:28] Bob: In the end it's, it's everything in all your annuities, right?

[00:09:31] Kathy Tipp: Oh yeah, to the tune of uh close to uh between 6- and 700,000 dollars.

[00:09:36] Bob: Wow. Oh my God.

[00:09:38] Kathy Tipp: Everything I had. Everything I had.

[00:09:40] Bob: And now no more $3000 checks every month, right?

[00:09:42] Kathy Tipp: That's right. All I have is Social Security.

[00:09:46] Bob: But even though her checking account has been emptied, her retirement funds have been exhausted. Brandon says there's still just one more fee to pay before Kathy gets access to that $3.5 million. And Brandon helps her figure out how to come up with a little bit more cash.

[00:10:05] Kathy Tipp: And he says, uh, have you ever heard of a reverse mortgage? I'm, sure I have. I'm not doing it. So he said, "Well call this company."

[00:10:14] Bob: This company is an alternative lender and Kathy takes out an $8,000 loan from them. That's all the lender will give her. But that's not enough, Brandon says. So he's another idea.

[00:10:28] Kathy Tipp: He had me buy jewelry. He arranged for it here at one of the high-end malls in Troy; a Rolex watch and a diamond bracelet. He, I actually let him talk to my husband, because I didn't have the money. And he convinced John, because he didn't like to hear me cry, to put up the money for part of this jewelry. So it was to the tune of $33,000. And I had to send that to Texas because they were going to sell it and make a profit and add it to my prize. So I'm in debt for that with my credit card.

[00:11:04] Bob: You bought the jewelry with a credit card.

[00:11:06] Kathy Tipp: Well, my part. The other part that John had to finance was money from his account. He sent a, um, a wire transfer to them.

[00:11:15] Bob: Oh wow.

[00:11:15] Kathy Tipp: Yeah.

[00:11:17] Bob: And so at this point, Kathy has nothing left, well less than nothing really when you consider the debt to the jewelry and the loan. And around this time Brandon just stops contacting Kathy.

[00:11:30] Kathy Tipp: What, you can't imagine what it was like to keep this secret for all those months.

[00:11:37] Bob: I'm sure it was incredibly...

[00:11:38] Kathy Tipp: That wasn't easy.

[00:11:38] Bob: ...lonely and isolating.

[00:11:39] Kathy Tipp: It was not easy.

[00:11:43] Bob: Well...

[00:11:43] Kathy Tipp: Keeping that secret from everyone, everyone; my daughter, everyone.

[00:11:48] Bob: So finally, about a month later in March after the calls promising the sweepstakes prize have all dried up. Kathy decides to confide in her neighbor.

[00:12:00] Kathy Tipp: Well, because I'd stopped hearing from Brandon, and I finally woke up and thought, well I'm scammed. And my, I told my neighbor, and she said, "I'll go to the police station with you." So she did.

[00:12:12] Bob: So you finally gave yourself permission to tell another person about what was going on.

[00:12:16] Kathy Tipp: I finally gave myself permission to tell someone else. Yes.

[00:12:20] Bob: That, that conversation must have been, well what was it like?

[00:12:23] Kathy Tipp: I was crying.

[00:12:24] Bob: So is this a neighbor you, you are close to?

[00:12:27] Kathy Tipp: Yeah. And she's been, see I'm going to start crying now. Sorry.

[00:12:32] Bob: That's okay, that's okay.

[00:12:33] Kathy Tipp: She's been my, my godsend uh because of John. So I can walk down five condos and we'll have a glass of wine, you know we can talk and visit. So she's been my big salvation here, 'cause of John.

[00:12:46] Bob: But it, but all these months, even though you were that close, you never told her.

[00:12:50] Kathy Tipp: No, I couldn't.

[00:12:52] Bob: Wow, hmm.

[00:12:54] Bob: So Kathy goes with her neighbor to the police.

[00:12:58] Bob: What--, what did they say when you got there?

[00:12:59] Kathy Tipp: They took all the details down and then they assigned a detective and he was, he was very, very nice. He didn't chastise me. And then he said he was going to deal with the FBI.

[00:13:11] Bob: Did, what did they tell you about the chance that you might get some of your money back?

[00:13:14] Kathy Tipp: Well my bank fraud detective, got me about a $1000 back.

[00:13:20] Bob: A thousand dollars. Oh my God.

[00:13:23] Bob: Kathy has sent the criminals around $700,000. And what she got back was $1000.

[00:13:32] Kathy Tipp: I'd lost everything I ever had; I'd worked for for 48 years at an advertising agency.

[00:13:38] Bob: Wow.

[00:13:39] Kathy Tipp: For 48 years.

[00:13:40] Bob: Wow.

[00:13:41] Kathy Tipp: Yeah, and I had, you know, a decent retirement. Now it's gone.

[00:13:46] Bob: She's still trying to digest all this when one night watching TV she sees her own story on the local news.

[00:13:55] Kathy Tipp: It had, did not mention my name. Just a story about a 73-year-old Troy woman who was scammed out of her entire retirement. And she saw it on the news. And the next morning I called WDIV, called Help Me Hank and said, "I'm the person that your news story was about last night." And he came out that morning.

[00:14:13] Bob: How did it feel telling your story to the journalist?

[00:14:15] Kathy Tipp: Watch it. He says, "How did you feel?" I said, "I'm devastated."

[00:14:19] Bob: So Kathy goes on TV to tell her story hoping it can make a difference for at least one other person. Talking about the crime helps her in surprising ways, too. But still, her life is now dramatically different.

[00:14:33] Kathy Tipp: Yeah, so I've run into a lot of nice people. It's not going to help me survive. So I have to change, I'm not getting my hair cut where I used to get my hair cut, 'cause I just can't afford that anymore. But I'm still going to get my nails done.

[00:14:49] Bob: You know what, certain things just have to get done.

[00:14:51] Kathy Tipp: Yeah, so I went to Great Clips. I found a girl who, see I have really short hair, it, you gotta keep up with your short hair.

[00:14:57] Bob: Um-hmm.

[00:14:58] Kathy Tipp: Like I used to get it cut every three weeks, three weeks; well not doing that now.

[00:15:01] Bob: I'm sure a whole bunch of things about your life has changed, right?

[00:15:04] Kathy Tipp: Oh yeah, oh yeah. Oh yeah, for sure.

[00:15:06] Bob: And you're thinking about going back to work?

[00:15:08] Kathy Tipp: You know I should, but I mean how can I leave John for very long?

[00:15:13] Bob: Kathy is still struggling to get back on her financial footing, and still struggling with these relentless criminals who recently reached out to her again even after she first spoke with The Perfect Scam. The Becky she references here is our great producer, Becky Dodson.

[00:15:31] Kathy Tipp: About three weeks ago, right after I think Becky and I talked, I heard from the original woman, Susan Miller. And she says, "Oh, I've, I've been out of the office for a few months because of my ill father. But I'm back in the office now. And your name crossed my desk that you haven't gotten your prize." Yeah, you think? And she says, "But you know we need $20,000 from you to uh, pay for the storage, car storage." "I don't have it, Susan. I do not have it, I have nowhere to get it."

[00:16:04] Bob: Susan knows Kathy has nothing of course, but she has another idea, another way to get just a little bit more from Kathy.

[00:16:13] Kathy Tipp: So then the next thing, maybe a day or so later, she's, "Oh, well I've talked to the chairman, and we made a deal. If you go buy two iPhone 15 Promax phones," well shoot, I didn't know, couldn't afford to buy those phones, but I did. And then I had to send them to someone in Texas. And they were, no, California, sorry. California. And so the next day I was supposed to get my prize as soon as they got the phones. Then Susan, that day says, "Oh, God, the Prize Patrol just went out for a long lunch." Oh yeah, (laughs). Oh, how hysterical is that? Now you're going to tell me there's not enough time for you to give my prize because someone from their Prize Patrol was going to go to the bank with me when I got my big check.

[00:17:07] Bob: And this was three weeks ago.

[00:17:09] Kathy Tipp: Yeah.

[00:17:10] Bob: When was the last time you spoke to this person?

[00:17:12] Kathy Tipp: Uh the day that the iPhones were supposed to arrive in California.

[00:17:16] Bob: So around...

[00:17:17] Kathy Tipp: So I guess I did it on a Thursday, so it was a Friday.

[00:17:21] Bob: Like August 1st or something like that?

[00:17:23] Kathy Tipp: Yeah. Uh-huh.

[00:17:24] Bob: And when they contacted, they just called you out of the blue and said, "Hey, I, I see you still have an open file here," or something like that?

[00:17:30] Kathy Tipp: That's right.

[00:17:32] Bob: Kathy is still struggling with what to do the next time a criminal calls her. If you listen to The Perfect Scam, you probably know what I'm about to tell her; just hang up. Ignore the calls. Block the calls. Just cease all contact with these people. But sometimes that's easier said than done.

[00:17:51] Bob: But all the way back from say February or so, you, you, then you stopped answering your phone, right?

[00:17:55] Kathy Tipp: Yes.

[00:17:56] Bob: So you would just let these calls go to voicemail when they came?

[00:17:59] Kathy Tipp: Well actually, she stopped communicating. And Brandon stopped communicating.

[00:18:03] Bob: And forgive me, but this reminds me somewhat of like when you're in high school and you break up with someone, right, who makes the last phone call or you know how does it really end? Oh, and I'm just wondering if they, yeah, if there was ever a time where you just didn't answer when they called back, back in February.

[00:18:19] Kathy Tipp: You're right. Well, in February, yes. Brandon yes.

[00:18:23] Bob: So, so you, you were strong enough, the police told me, don't answer the phone, I'm not going to do it, right?

[00:18:28] Kathy Tipp: Right. Oh, I was so, I was so tempted. I was so frickin’ tempted. Ugh.

[00:18:32] Bob: Of course, that's what they prey on. There's always the, somewhere in there there's still a little bit of hope, even though you...

[00:18:37] Kathy Tipp: Oh yeah, they became my friends. They acted like they cared.

[00:18:41] Bob: They talked to you every day, right, it's hard for you to talk to your husband, right, so.

[00:18:46] Kathy Tipp: Yeah. Yep, it's crazy.

[00:18:47] Bob: But you, you know this is, you know this is a scam, right?

[00:18:50] Kathy Tipp: Well yeah. (laughs), I certainly do.

[00:18:51] Bob: Like you, you, you know the money's never coming, right?

[00:18:53] Kathy Tipp: Oh yes, of course. Oh, of course.

[00:18:54] Bob: So you know you should, you should never talk to this person again, right?

[00:18:57] Kathy Tipp: Right. I'm just sick to my stomach that I have ruined my daughter and my grandchildren's inheritance, and I have no means of income anymore. I think I need to get a job. I mean I'm 74, and then I have this husband. How am I going to go, how am I going to have a job? He, he wouldn't be able to handle it.

[00:19:17] Bob: But I, I just want to, the next time this, she is going to call again. That, that always happens.

[00:19:20] Kathy Tipp: Oh, you think so?

[00:19:21] Bob: Yeah, so what will you do the next time she calls?

[00:19:24] Bob: I'll say, screw you.

[00:19:26] Bob: But no, no-no-no. No-no. You're not even going to do that.

[00:19:28] Kathy Tipp: Oh, I'm not going to answer it.

[00:19:29] Bob: You're not going to answer the phone.

[00:19:30] Kathy Tipp: Yeah, yeah.

[00:19:31] Bob: You're just not going to answer the phone. I know that Becky has suggested this to you, but I want to suggest it to you, too, because you know it's like me saying, the next time there's a bag of potato chips in the room, I'm not going to eat them. I'm not telling the truth.

[00:19:40] Kathy Tipp: Oh yeah, willpower.

[00:19:42] Bob: (chuckles) Right? Willpower is hard for everybody, so you need a plan. I want you to have the, the Fraud Watch Network phone number handy. They are great people. Most of them are volunteers.

[00:19:52] Kathy Tipp: Who?

[00:19:52] Bob: Mos--, The Fraud Watch Network. It's, it's the peo--, AARP...

[00:19:55] Kathy Tipp: Oh yeah, okay.

[00:19:56] Bob: AARP, the phone call is free, all the conversations are free. Most of the operators there are former victims of scams themselves.

[00:20:03] Kathy Tipp: Oh really?

[00:20:04] Bob: Yeah, so they're very empathetic.

[00:20:05] Kathy Tipp: Fraud. Watch. Network.

[00:20:06] Bob: And yeah, and I'm going to read you the phone number. Do you have a pencil nearby or something.

[00:20:09] Kathy Tipp: I do, I do. I do.

[00:20:11] Bob: The phone number is 877-908-3360.

[00:20:14] Kathy Tipp: Okay. Okay. 3360.

[00:20:18] Bob: And they're there Monday...

[00:20:20] Kathy Tipp: Fraud Watch Network.

[00:20:21] Bob: Yeah, they're there Monday through Friday, 8 am to 8 pm. They're very, they'll just listen and, and it's, this, this is what I, the next time you get a call from these people, I want you to just call the Fraud Watch Network instead and talk to them.

[00:20:32] Kathy Tipp: Okay.

[00:20:32] Bob: 'Cause it, 'cause it's human nature, like I said, think about it as a bag of potato chips. You can tell me now you're not going to answer, but then if they're there, so you have to have a plan. You're going to call these people and they're going to; they're going to talk to you and they're going to help you through it.

[00:20:43] Kathy Tipp: Yeah, okay, okay.

[00:20:45] Bob: I really, I really, really, really...

[00:20:45] Kathy Tipp: I hope they do. I hope they do, although I...

[00:20:49] Bob: They do, I, I promise you they will. They're great at what they do.

[00:20:52] Bob: Yes, the people at The Fraud Watch Network are great at what they do. And if you or anyone you love feels like you're having trouble resisting the urge to communicate with someone who's probably a criminal, make a plan to call The Fraud Watch Network. As I mentioned, Kathy is still struggling, but she's not alone. The Publishers Clearing House fraud is pretty common lately.

[00:21:14] Bob: So I know that you are really mad about this, um, and I, I'm so, I'm so pleased that you're willing to talk about it because other people, I mean I just looked online. I found two other stories of people who have been arrested for this precise thing, for lying to people saying they'd won something from Publishers Clearing House. So it's so important you're willing to talk.

[00:21:31] Kathy Tipp: Really.

[00:21:32] Bob: Yeah, there's this couple in New Jersey who stole over $2 million this way, they just got arrested for it.

[00:21:35] Kathy Tipp: Oh, what?

[00:21:36] Bob: Yeah.

[00:21:37] Kathy Tipp: Holy crap.

[00:21:38] Bob: Yeah, so this is happening, and so it's so important, and I'm so grateful you're willing to talk to us. What do you want people to learn from hearing your story?

[00:21:45] Kathy Tipp: Don't, if it's too good to be true, it is. And don't listen to these people who convince you that they're on your side and they want you to win this because it makes them happy when they deliver a prize to a winner. Don't fall for it, especially if they want money.

[00:22:02] Bob: That's the big thing, right? No matter what they say, when they, in the end, they ask you for money; that's a big, a big red flag, right?

[00:22:07] Kathy Tipp: Right.

[00:22:09] Bob: That couple in New Jersey accused of stealing $2 million was arrested in March, but it's easy to find stories like Kathy's happening all over the country. As you might imagine, this is a big issue for the real legitimate Publishers Clearing House, which has nothing to do with these scams. And which has devoted a lot of resources to trying to stop these scams and catch the criminals behind them. To hear more about that, we spoke with Chris Irving, Vice President of Consumer & Legal Affairs at Publishers Clearing House.

[00:22:42] Bob: How frustrating is it for your brand when this thing happens?

[00:22:44] Chris Irving: Well, it’s incredibly frustrating for our brand. But more frustrating for the consumer loss that we hear. I think you may have seen over the past couple of months, I think it was the Better Business Bureau did a report on the top companies that are used in these imposter scams. It's Publishers Clearing House, Microsoft, I think even the FTC was up there. But unfortunately, our name was up there as well. This is not a case where imitation is flattery. Imitation, it's not imitation at all, but using our name is a, is a great concern to us.

[00:23:08] Bob: First things first. We've all seen the excited families getting those large checks on TV; do people have to enter the sweepstakes to win?

[00:23:17] Chris Irving: Yes. I guess that's another, it sounds so obvious, but, you know, yes, you have to enter. Somebody, some people will tell us, "I got this call. I didn't enter, but they said I won." Well, it's the old rule, first of all, you can't win anything unless you enter. So, if you haven't entered, you haven't engaged with Publishers Clearing House or Sweepstakes, you haven't won a prize. If you have engaged with Publishers Clearing House, you win a prize, we're not going to ask for money. If you win a major prize from Publishers Clearing House, $10,000 or more, we'll actually show up with our Prize Patrol. Somebody telling you, if somebody calls you and says the Prize Patrol is coming, get ready, it's not from Publishers Clearing House. We're not telling you ahead of time. We do award our prizes unannounced, just like you see in our TV commercials.

[00:23:53] Bob: Um, and I suppose maybe one of the answers that the criminals give is, well, you probably entered years ago and we just have your sweepstakes entry now because a lot of people probably have at some point in their life entered your sweepstakes, right?

[00:24:04] Chris Irving: That's true, but usually our sweepstakes run for about a year or two-year period. So, if you haven't entered in the past year or two years, it's, the sweepstakes has already been completed and already been awarded, so that again would be a fallacy as well.

[00:24:15] Bob: While the Publishers Clearing House scam is not new, that FTC blog post suggests it's on the rise lately. Social media might be one reason. Criminals are reaching out to people using various instant message platforms, Chris said.

[00:24:30] Bob: I'm wondering if you could even quantify, I mean there are through different ways, phone calls, letters, social media, email, is it about equal the way that people are approached nowadays or do you think social media is the biggest way people are approached now?

[00:24:45] Chris Irving: I think it's a combination. I think you're seeing a much larger increase in social media contacts, but that's almost always combined with a follow up phone call. Because as much as social media can say something, it's the, I hate to use the word sophistication and giving credit to any of these imposter scammers, but their ability to manipulate someone through verbal communications through the criminal experience they've had in trying to manipulate consumers and saying what they think will get the consumer to send money. So while the social media contact or the letter may be initially something that gets the consumer interested, it's usually the follow up phone call where really they can then put pressure on their consumer, manipulate them, talk about don't tell anybody about this, this is going to be great, all the terrible things they say to try to get somebody to send money, things that a real sweepstakes, and certainly Publishers Clearing House would never say. I think that's where they can really, uh, do the most damage.

[00:25:35] Bob: In fact, the criminals are so persuasive on the phone in part because they steal the identities of workers there, something Chris knows firsthand.

[00:25:46] Chris Irving: And they try to use, and not try, they do use the name of our employees, very often they spell them wrong, but they try to use the name of our employees, so that someone who may be aware of Publishers Clearing House and has followed us, again, they'll see a name that maybe is familiar to them, and they'll use that name.

[00:25:59] Bob: Wow. Have they used your name?

[00:26:00] Chris Irving: I, I was just going to say, unfortunately, I've seen my name used in the past. You know, I, at least I, I smile, but I really don't want to smile when I receive a letter in my own house that was from “Chris Irving.”

[00:26:11] Bob: Are you serious? You got a scam letter with your own name in it?

[00:26:13] Chris Irving: I did.

[00:26:14] Bob: Wow.

[00:26:15] Chris Irving: I did. Uh, I don't recall mailing that, and I certainly don't recall asking myself to send money to my own company, I mean, it is an imposter scam, so anything that they can use, where someone who maybe has a question will do a quick lookup, well, maybe is this a real person, they'll look up and see what, either a CEO's name, my name, one of the name of the individuals who awards our prizes. Again, they're just trying to establish legitimacy. And for a consumer who may be acting fast, may be caught up in this, you know, that may be all it takes, at least initially, to get them hooked. And once that hook is in, then the challenges become much higher.

[00:26:48] Bob: The scam has changed over time, Chris told me.

[00:26:51] Chris Irving: It's morphed over the years from years ago where it was people calling from Las Vegas in boiler rooms, to more sophisticated scams today, where they seem to be calling offshore, from Jamaica, Costa Rica, where it's much more difficult for law enforcement to prosecute, to arrest, to go after somebody. In terms of prevalence, you know, it ebbs and flows. When we're awarding one of our big million-dollar prizes, it seems that the scammers kind of come out of the woodwork then, but it is prevalent throughout the year, you know, ups and downs. And again, not just using our name, but they'll combine our name with the FTC. They'll combine our name with Microsoft. They'll combine our name with a celebrity. Anything to establish legitimacy, and unfortunately, the season of scammers is probably year-round, not just when we're giving away our big prizes.

[00:27:32] Bob: But it is of note that when you are advertising a big check is coming, that there might be a bit of a, a run of this stuff.

[00:27:38] Chris Irving: Yeah, they try to, they try to piggyback on our own promotions. No doubt about that.

[00:27:43] Bob: And so Publishers Clearing House has a section on its website devoted to this scam, but it all really boils down to one message.

[00:27:52] Chris Irving: I think the main thing to keep in mind for consumers is that at Publishers Clearing House, or any legitimate sweepstakes, in fact any scam or any contact you get, if someone's asking you to send money, to claim a prize, to enter, it is not real, it's not from the real Publishers Clearing House; it's a scam, hang up the phone, rip up the letter, delete the social message, and that is why, I mean you know if you go to the PCH website or in mail or in medial appearances, you'll hear a lot of messages, a lot of tips, but just that one tip, and the only tip that could stop all of this loss from the get-go is that if, if a consumer gets a call, a letter, an email, a private message that says you won, and whosever name is attached to it, whether it be one of our members of our Prize Patrol, whether it be our CEO, or even if it's my name, if it's telling you you've got to send money, pay a tax, pay a fee, send a gift card to claim a prize, if consumers would just see that red alert, you know, blinking red, red, red, stop, stop -- that would prevent all of these losses because that's the only thing they're after is money, and the only really damage here to consumers at the end of the day is in the loss of money, is when consumers send money. They're not looking for much else, you know, occasionally they may try to get banking information or, or checking information, things like that, but that's us--, usually secondary. What the consumers really are, are up against are these scammers looking for one thing, quick payments that are sent electronically through the mail; however, that red light would just go off to consumers saying, don't send any money. It's a scam. These imposters would have to go somewhere else to do their trade.

[00:29:26] Bob: Chris and others at Publishers Clearing House do send monthly reports to law enforcement, so I asked, do they ever catch any criminals?

[00:29:36] Chris Irving: Yes, we have worked with law enforcement, which law enforcement has been able to go after folks. And there have been arrests. There have been convictions. There have been, in some cases, money sent back to consumers. But the money back is very illusory because most of the time when somebody's been caught, the money's gone. It's been spent for drugs or for some other cause, who knows what. So that the, the ability to get money back to consumers is, is not impossible, but very difficult. And so to that end, I would certainly remind anybody, any consumer who may have been a victim, file a police report, go to your law enforcement, get that in, get that in writing, because that may allow at some point money to be returned to a consumer. Again, I don't want to promise that's a likelihood, but it's a, it's a possibility. But I, I would say one of the things we do to work with law enforcement to try to assist them in apprehending, identifying consumers is that we have our own anti-scam database. So we'll send that directly to the FTC. We will also then take a look at ourselves for our own trends. And if we see, you know, without law enforcement coming to us saying, I see a trend, we'll see a trend, perhaps, and we'll try to identify that and then ship that to law enforcement as well and say, you know, we see this name being used, here's an address. And so we'll send that either to local law enforcement or to the FTC or whoever might be Postal Inspection Service.

[00:30:41] Bob: And one clear trend that has been identified through the years is how much of this sweepstakes fraud starts in Jamaica. In fact, so much that local crime gangs fight over the business.

[00:30:54] Chris Irving: You know there was a shocking thing we heard a couple of years ago that the murder rate in Jamaica was directly tied to lottery scams, not just Publishers Clearing House, but lottery scams. And you'd say, what was the connection between violent crime and lottery scams? Well, the lists, the lists that are out there, and I can talk about those in a second. The list where they have consumers that they think may be vulnerable are so valuable that the rival gangs we've heard in Jamaica, go after each other for these lists, and you know, since there is a great deal of money being lost, these things are very valuable. And so violent crime in Jamaica, there is a lottery task force in Jamaica that we've worked with that tries to identify these scams, that tries to go after these individuals. I think that's where we've seen a lot of the, a lot of the crime coming from a lot of the imposter scams coming from. We've worked with the Jamaican officials. We've worked with what's called Project Jolt, an operation based in Jamaica to try to go after lottery scams. But you know, unfortunately there's a lot going on here and it is a lucrative scam, imposter scam for many of these criminals. And so difficult to stamp it out altogether.

[00:31:54] Bob: Chris does think social media companies might be able to do more to stop the crime.

[00:32:00] Chris Irving: Before I forget, one thing I wanted to mention to you guys...

[00:32:01] Bob: Sure.

[00:32:01] Chris Irving: ... is like we talk about the efforts to try to stop this; education, working with law enforcement, you know, a lot of the contacts come from phone, a lot of the contacts come through mail. Increasingly though, we see a lot of the imposter contacts coming through Facebook and social media platforms. And we have a group that each day when they see these will contact Facebook, contact Instagram, contact the official there to get them taken down. So I'll give the social media sites a, a grade of an A in taking these things down when we let them know. Unfortunately, I would have to give them a failing grade in preventing them from happening in the first place. Because it is the same names that are being used, that are posted on the social media sites, whether it's PCH, one of our employees names that's used all the time because they're part of the, the, the group that awards the prizes, and it always, I, I know they have a lot on their plate, the social media sites, they have a lot of fraud and other terrible things that are happening they're trying to fight against, but if they know it's the same names that are again and again are going to be used in these efforts to try to deceive consumers, we would just hope that there'd be more efforts in trying to prevent those posts from taking place. It's, it's great. As I said, they do a great job in taking these things down when we report them and I think it's great. Very fast, but, you know, if they weren't up there in the first place and if there was some, you know, tripwire when they used the name of, uh, you know, one of our price control members or our CEO to say wait a second, is this real? I would think that technology would allow them to stop that and taking place before it's posted. So that's a bit of a frustration. Again, I know they are working on lots of different issues, social media sites, they have their own challenges, but that would go a long way, at least in that kind of spigot of social media, uh, contacts to try to prevent those, or at least certainly tamp them down. So again, I don't want to throw all the blame their way, but it's just one area where again, they do a great job in taking them down, but boy, if they could stop them at the beginning, even better.

[00:33:44] Bob: Well what are the red flags that people should look out for that a contact that might look like it's from someone like you is really from a criminal?

[00:33:51] Chris Irving: Well, if The Perfect Scam listeners get any of these, they should hang up the phone, rip up the letter, delete the social media message, and either contact Publishers Clearing House, or more importantly, contact law enforcement, certainly if they've lost money. And those are the following: The number one rule, if a sweepstakes or a contact says you've won money but you have to send payment, a tax, a fee, and more increasingly, gift cards, you've not heard from the real Publishers Clearing House. You've certainly not heard from an illegitimate sweepstakes. Do not send any money for any reason. No tax, no fee, no payment. If there's a tax involved, that's between you and the IRS when you do your taxes, not something that would be handled by the company that's awarding you money. Number two, if somebody says to you, "Keep this quiet, this is confidential, don't tell anybody," that's a scam. If you win a Publishers Clearing House Sweepstakes, we want you to tell everybody. We want you to celebrate and tell your friends and family right away and get financial advice, get help. Don't do anything until you get your check. But if someone says to you, you know, "Be quiet, keep it quiet," that's a scam. Again, rip up the letter, don't respond, hang up the phone. Publishers Clearing House does not private message consumers. If you're getting a private message about a sweepstakes, it's not going to be real. It's not from Publishers Clearing House. Don't respond, don't send any money, contact law enforcement, reach out to your family for assistance. And again, I, it sounds like a broken record. But that record needs to be played as many times as possible. Don't send money to anybody who says you won a prize because that's not the way a legitimate prize sweepstakes works. Not the way a Publishers Clearing House has ever worked, it's not the way any sweepstakes would work.

[00:35:18] Bob: Don't send money to win a prize, ever. That is not the way sweepstakes works, and I don't care if I sound like a broken record either. And that's why, before we leave Kathy, I just wanted to check in on her one more time.

[00:35:33] Bob: I have an important question for you.

[00:35:35] Kathy Tipp: Sure.

[00:35:36] Bob: What are you going to do the next time that one of these people call you and ask for money?

[00:35:39] Kathy Tipp: I'm don't know if I can say the words here. I'm going to tell them to go "F" yourself.

[00:35:45] Bob: Nope, that's not what you're going to do.

[00:35:46] Kathy Tipp: Oh, I'm going to hang up.

[00:35:47] Bob: You're not even going to hang up. You're just not even going to answer.

[00:35:49] Kathy Tipp: I'm not going to answer.

[00:35:50] Bob: And instead, you're going to...

[00:35:52] Kathy Tipp: Call the police.

[00:35:54] Bob: No, well you can do that. Do that for sure, but also, you're going to call...

[00:36:58] Kathy Tipp: Oh, uh-uh, uh-uh. I'm going to call The Fraud Watch Network.

[00:36:02] Bob: Yes, exactly. And the number is...

[00:36:04] Kathy Tipp: 877-908-3360.

[00:36:07] Bob: There it is, and I'm going to be very happy when I hear that you called them.

[00:36:11] Kathy Tipp: Okay, great.

[00:36:12] Bob: 'Cause they're going to help you. And that's, that's just don't even, don't even, just ignore the call when it, the phone, it rings, and call these people instead.

[00:36:18] Kathy Tipp: Okay, I will.

[00:36:19] Bob: All right. Kathy, thank you so much...

[00:36:20] Kathy Tipp: You really think I'm going to hear from them again, 'cause I did after you know a couple months, heard from...

[00:36:35] Bob: I, I know, I know that you will. That's how they work. They have these databases where they keep, you know, they keep going back to people and going back to people. I'm sure they will call again, and that's why I want you to be ready when they call.

[00:36:33] Kathy Tipp: Oh, I can't wait. I can't wait. I can't wait.

[00:36:36] Bob: You're not even going to answer, right? No answer, no answer, don't, don't talk to them just...

[00:36:39] Kathy Tipp: Oh, but I'll be so tempted, but I, oh yeah, I won't.

[00:36:41] Bob: This is the ex-boyfriend you cannot talk to again, period.

[00:36:44] Kathy Tipp: Okay, okay.

[00:36:48] Bob: For The Perfect Scam, I'm Bob Sullivan.

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[00:36:56] Bob: If you have been targeted by a scam or fraud, you are not alone. Call the AARP Fraud Watch Network Helpline at 877-908-3360. Their trained fraud specialists can provide you with free support and guidance on what to do next. Our email address at The Perfect Scam is: theperfectscampodcast@aarp.org, and we want to hear from you. If you've been the victim of a scam or you know someone who has, and you'd like us to tell their story, write to us. That address again is: theperfectscampodcast@aarp.org. Thank you to our team of scambusters; Associate Producer, Annalea Embree; Researcher, Becky Dodson; Executive Producer, Julie Getz; and our Audio Engineer and Sound Designer, Julio Gonzalez. Be sure to find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. For AARP's The Perfect Scam, I'm Bob Sullivan.

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